Boss Ward

[Z1kmund]

Why do I get punished for having a functional build? If you don't want people speedkilling bosses then don't allow player power to rise that high.

[Ravenkid9266]

Boss ward was introduced as a replacement to Dynamic Damage Reduction.

Boss ward is intended to fulfill the same goals namely the attempt to normalize damage between high and low damage builds. This effectively removed the punishment aspect of DDR for building high damage, kept the artificial damage boost (via ward decay), and was in a more understandable form visually.

However this concept is too much for the LE player base to grasp so it is getting removed from most bosses. Yes according to the developer mike boss ward is getting removed from most bosses, not because its bad or failing at its job but because its simply too difficult for people to grasp. As he said over on reddit "Almost all of the negative feedback I've read on the system hinges on a misconception."

This is a nerf to low damage builds.

[Rem]

The devs actually agree that they went over board with the boss ward and are eliminating it from a lot of encounters in season 2. I think the goal will be to have more bosses that don't have boss ward. We will get more detailed explanation (hopefully) when they release the path notes towards the end of the month.

But my guess is that monolith specific bosses will most likely keep their boss ward, like Lagon/Abomination/etc

[JCD]

Not only is there boss ward there is also passive damage reduction as monster level increases. Up to 87% at level 100. Explained in the level scaling modifiers section and can be confirmed when damaging target dummies vs actual enemies in campaign/monoliths.

https://forum.lastepoch.com/t/community-game-guide/26057/10

[WallaceTheSane]

These kinds of things always seem wild to me when you really think about it. Even if you build very basic, it's pretty easy to get around that. Even when I first started playing, I never had an issue with the ward on bosses. I had a not so great fire build on my sorc and just stack fire damage and it was perfectly fine. That was even back when it was still pre 1.0 and people were still complaining a ton about Lagon being a ♥♥♥♥♥ to kill.

[Dark Sun Gwyndolin]

Originally posted by Ravenkid9266:

Boss ward was introduced as a replacement to Dynamic Damage Reduction.

Boss ward is intended to fulfill the same goals namely the attempt to normalize damage between high and low damage builds. This effectively removed the punishment aspect of DDR for building high damage, kept the artificial damage boost (via ward decay), and was in a more understandable form visually.

However this concept is too much for the LE player base to grasp so it is getting removed from most bosses. Yes according to the developer mike boss ward is getting removed from most bosses, not because its bad or failing at its job but because its simply too difficult for people to grasp. As he said over on reddit "Almost all of the negative feedback I've read on the system hinges on a misconception."

This is a nerf to low damage builds.

As someone who plays PoE1 and LE roughly equally, I much prefer LE's Boss Ward to PoE1's more-traditional invulnerability phases. Both serve as a check on a how fast you can kill a boss, but LE's seems far more nuanced, since if you have exceptionally high DPS due to twink gear, you can plow through the Ward just as fast as the main HP bar.

[Astasia]

Originally posted by WallaceTheSane:

Even when I first started playing, I never had an issue with the ward on bosses. I had a not so great fire build on my sorc and just stack fire damage and it was perfectly fine. That was even back when it was still pre 1.0

Boss ward wasn't added until 1.1.

It doesn't make anything more difficult, it's just a really terrible system that arbitrarily slows things downs and encourages low DPS builds to run around in circles waiting for ward to decay, which is a lot safer than melee attacking the boss or whatever and doing nominal extra damage to said ward. It was absolutely dumb and it's being removed because of that, and the devs realized this even if they don't want to admit it.

A harder and more engaging fight is better than the stupid boss ward system. Even the old DR system was better for the average player.

Originally posted by Dark Sun Gwyndolin:

As someone who plays PoE1 and LE roughly equally, I much prefer LE's Boss Ward to PoE1's more-traditional invulnerability phases. Both serve as a check on a how fast you can kill a boss, but LE's seems far more nuanced, since if you have exceptionally high DPS due to twink gear, you can plow through the Ward just as fast as the main HP bar.

You can one phase kill almost every single boss in PoE1 with enough DPS, bypassing any "invuln phase." Including ubers. PoE boss phases don't exist to arbitrarily extend the fight, they exist to make the fight more interesting.

[Ravenkid9266]

Originally posted by Dark Sun Gwyndolin:

As someone who plays PoE1 and LE roughly equally, I much prefer LE's Boss Ward to PoE1's more-traditional invulnerability phases. Both serve as a check on a how fast you can kill a boss, but LE's seems far more nuanced, since if you have exceptionally high DPS due to twink gear, you can plow through the Ward just as fast as the main HP bar.

So if you look at the two systems how are they different and the same?

You can one tap bosses in both, however due to the nature of PoE it is far more "mandatory". No one wants to sit through all of the Maven phases for example.

In LE you can continue to deal damage, and leech during ward this makes the phase duration somewhat dynamic. Its also worth pointing out you can build to face tank, where as in LE roll into even corruption 300 and stand in the bad and watch what happens.

Ultimately though what LE is trying to do is remove the wheels from your car and replace them with Icosahedrons.

Its also mostly meh, as boss ward is going to be mostly removed so its just a nerf to all of the things people play that they call builds.

The proper solution to this problem was not to continually create and remove systems but to have spent all those years in EA adjusting numbers, and making the system more clear to the player, not to remove it because people just don't understand it.

[Dark Sun Gwyndolin]

Originally posted by Ravenkid9266:

Originally posted by Dark Sun Gwyndolin:

As someone who plays PoE1 and LE roughly equally, I much prefer LE's Boss Ward to PoE1's more-traditional invulnerability phases. Both serve as a check on a how fast you can kill a boss, but LE's seems far more nuanced, since if you have exceptionally high DPS due to twink gear, you can plow through the Ward just as fast as the main HP bar.

So if you look at the two systems how are they different and the same?

You can one tap bosses in both, however due to the nature of PoE it is far more "mandatory". No one wants to sit through all of the Maven phases for example.

In LE you can continue to deal damage, and leech during ward this makes the phase duration somewhat dynamic. Its also worth pointing out you can build to face tank, where as in LE roll into even corruption 300 and stand in the bad and watch what happens.

Ultimately though what LE is trying to do is remove the wheels from your car and replace them with Icosahedrons.

Its also mostly meh, as boss ward is going to be mostly removed so its just a nerf to all of the things people play that they call builds.

The proper solution to this problem was not to continually create and remove systems but to have spent all those years in EA adjusting numbers, and making the system more clear to the player, not to remove it because people just don't understand it.

I'm getting mixed messages. Do you think the core problem with EHG is that they don't listen to the fanbase, or that they listen too much?

[Ravenkid9266]

Originally posted by Dark Sun Gwyndolin:

Originally posted by Ravenkid9266:

So if you look at the two systems how are they different and the same?

You can one tap bosses in both, however due to the nature of PoE it is far more "mandatory". No one wants to sit through all of the Maven phases for example.

In LE you can continue to deal damage, and leech during ward this makes the phase duration somewhat dynamic. Its also worth pointing out you can build to face tank, where as in LE roll into even corruption 300 and stand in the bad and watch what happens.

Ultimately though what LE is trying to do is remove the wheels from your car and replace them with Icosahedrons.

Its also mostly meh, as boss ward is going to be mostly removed so its just a nerf to all of the things people play that they call builds.

The proper solution to this problem was not to continually create and remove systems but to have spent all those years in EA adjusting numbers, and making the system more clear to the player, not to remove it because people just don't understand it.

I'm getting mixed messages. Do you think the core problem with EHG is that they don't listen to the fanbase, or that they listen too much?

With this subject?

With boss ward EHG should have adjusted the numbers with far more frequency to get it working properly. When it was rolled out the developer mike boasted about how hard it would be to bypass, turns out it's quite easy.

However pick a lane. EHG is mostly removing it not because it's bad in their eyes (according to them) but people don't understand it. Does that seem logical? Oh let's not work on communicating how it functions just scrap it.

If you look at the history of LE and the length of development not anywhere near enough number adjustments, dreadful put out a nearly 3 hour video on this recently. Does that bode well for the decade plus development that EHG claims to want to provide?

[DecalMan]

It basically gives the bosses 2x the health. So why not just give them 2x the health and not have the shield?

[Dark Sun Gwyndolin]

Originally posted by DecalMan:

It basically gives the bosses 2x the health. So why not just give them 2x the health and not have the shield?

Because Ward naturally degenerates. It's specifically a crutch for low-DPS builds, or rather, for new players who haven't yet gotten the grasp of ARPG number-pumping and don't have access to twink gear. If you have a high-DPS build, you'll chew through the Ward just as fast as the health, but if you have a low-DPS build, you can simply treat it like a normal invulnerable phase and run around while it degenerates.

All this is going to result in is the game becoming harder for noobs while not any different for veterans, all because tryhards believe any innovative mechanic is a conspiracy by EHG to rob them of their min-maxed "FUN". We're going to see the return of daily boss threads, where noobs were constantly asking for help after Lagon flattened them.

You may think otherwise, but I LIKED the era of boss damage gating, because it meant there was more to building than glass-cannon keyboard-mashing.

[DecalMan]

Originally posted by Dark Sun Gwyndolin:

Originally posted by DecalMan:

It basically gives the bosses 2x the health. So why not just give them 2x the health and not have the shield?

Because Ward naturally degenerates. It's specifically a crutch for low-DPS builds, or rather, for new players who haven't yet gotten the grasp of ARPG number-pumping and don't have access to twink gear. If you have a high-DPS build, you'll chew through the Ward just as fast as the health, but if you have a low-DPS build, you can simply treat it like a normal invulnerable phase and run around while it degenerates.

All this is going to result in is the game becoming harder for noobs while not any different for veterans, all because tryhards believe any innovative mechanic is a conspiracy by EHG to rob them of their min-maxed "FUN". We're going to see the return of daily boss threads, where noobs were constantly asking for help after Lagon flattened them.

You may think otherwise, but I LIKED the era of boss damage gating, because it meant there was more to building than glass-cannon keyboard-mashing.

So why not just bring back difficulty's instead of a shield bar?

[Ravenkid9266]

Originally posted by Dark Sun Gwyndolin:

if you have a low-DPS build, you can simply treat it like a normal invulnerable phase and run around while it degenerates.

This is part of the misconception.

You may know that you will deal more damage if you continue to DPS the boss when the ward is up (your DPS+ward degen=more), but a lot of people read statements like yours and think: oh its an invuln phase and stop DPSing.

[Astasia]

I mean, it IS an invuln phase. You can just end it some degree faster by continuing to attack, but your attacks aren't doing any real damage and if you stop attacking the phase will still end and you'll be at the same point in the fight. It degens faster than most builds can damage it, making actively trying to "speed it up" feel pointless at least while leveling. It's only later game meta builds that can really punch through it like it's nothing. The average player is not going to have a build like that, and for them the current system is effectively multiple unavoidable invuln phases for every single boss.

I think the only misconception anyone has are people like the OP thinking their build is any way related to the system. I don't know how somebody can have such a misconception though, so I doubt it's common and I doubt it's related to why the system is being changed. Now if the amount of ward gained during these phases was based on how quickly the health threshold was reached, that would be another story, but would cycle back to the problems with the DDR system and trying to invalidate player power instead of balancing their game or accepting the inevitable power creep.

[oldschooldiablo]

Originally posted by Astasia:

I mean, it IS an invuln phase. You can just end it some degree faster by continuing to attack, but your attacks aren't doing any real damage and if you stop attacking the phase will still end and you'll be at the same point in the fight. It degens faster than most builds can damage it, making actively trying to "speed it up" feel pointless at least while leveling. It's only later game meta builds that can really punch through it like it's nothing. The average player is not going to have a build like that, and for them the current system is effectively multiple unavoidable invuln phases for every single boss.

I think the only misconception anyone has are people like the OP thinking their build is any way related to the system. I don't know how somebody can have such a misconception though, so I doubt it's common and I doubt it's related to why the system is being changed. Now if the amount of ward gained during these phases was based on how quickly the health threshold was reached, that would be another story, but would cycle back to the problems with the DDR system and trying to invalidate player power instead of balancing their game or accepting the inevitable power creep.

It is not an invulnerability phase. That's is in Fact a misconception about it. For it to be an actual invulnerability phase. It would have to not allow u do dmg it at all that includes ward.

Which is why they are removing it from most bosses. And mobs. They aren't changing the system. Ward will still be a thing just far less prevalent than it is now.

There is a boss in the game that does in fact have an invulnerability phase. We're u cant dmg it's ward either. It's that deer looking boss. Forget it's name cuz i avoid that boss as much as possible cuz i don't like that fight. When he calls for aid and his allies come to help him u cant dmg it. Including it's ward.

Invulnerability and ward are two different systems. And as u can see invul is a misconception about the ward system