The Woven Echoes mechanic looks... complicated...

[EstusWick]

I love the idea of the Woven Echoes drops and expanding the map. But I already find myself sitting at my computer with that map pulled up... *Sigh*...

I just don't want to not like the system, but it feels like I have to know all the ins and outs before I participate in it.

I think we should just spend the echoes and they be randomly placed for the start of this system. so we just hit a button and go and as we play we learn what echoes feel great next to each other and it's exciting when we RNG the right combo. Then Next season when we understand it, let us control it.

[Redeemer]

Why not do this yourself? Just randomly spend and place. Too much load for Devs to implement something like this when you can do it yourself

[WallaceTheSane]

It sounds like you're overthinking it when you haven't even played it yet.

[Tyyne]

Originally posted by WallaceTheSane:

It sounds like you're overthinking it when you haven't even played it yet.

Exactly this. Wait until the patch hits and play the game.

[EstusWick]

Originally posted by Redeemer:

Why not do this yourself? Just randomly spend and place. Too much load for Devs to implement something like this when you can do it yourself

What? That's exactly what I don't want to do... Too much for an ARPG development team to put more RNG in their game? I don't see that.

[EstusWick]

Originally posted by WallaceTheSane:

It sounds like you're overthinking it when you haven't even played it yet.

I'm not.

I already hate the amount of time you have spend in menus in this game I've come with valid criticisms and gave a perfectly reasonable solution for an ARPG to induce more RNG and less menus surfing.

Do you have a point against that (the actual point of the post) or are you just here to defend a game that no one is attacking?

[tiamats4esgares]

I feel like they're adding too much content at once. This should've been spread over 3 seasons. I have no idea why they did it all at once.

[Tyyne]

Originally posted by EstusWick:

Originally posted by WallaceTheSane:

It sounds like you're overthinking it when you haven't even played it yet.

I'm not.

I already hate the amount of time you have spend in menus in this game I've come with valid criticisms and gave a perfectly reasonable solution for an ARPG to induce more RNG and less menus surfing.

Do you have a point against that (the actual point of the post) or are you just here to defend a game that no one is attacking?

Read the patch notes and you can see they are reducing RNG all across the board. Adding more RNG into the game would be really silly. People want more control in the game as a whole, not less of it.

Why not just manually and randomly click buttons in the game and see what happens then? What purpose would a system in the game serve if you did not have to know how it works? Would it honestly be better if they introduced a new system and then said "no, you do now have to know how it works, just push a button and the game decides it for you randomly"? That would just take away the freedom of choice from the player, while also undermining any and all purpose of a new system, because to me what you are suggesting here seems like they could have just added new random events into an existing system (monolith echoes).

Maybe they will add a button in the future (and I am talking about season 3 or 4 or whatever) that actually does place things on the map randomly, but before that it is quite important to learn WHAT the system actually does.

Again, participate in the system once it is actually introduced, not before, and see how it works.

[Templar999]

From what i can imagine and see all of it just adds variable factors of extra loot or interchangeable factor adds.

What purpose would even force randomizing any of it be? Would they not want to see if the players would come up with a meta and then decide to balance the weaker less taken aspects?

[[Ygg]Azarhiel]

Originally posted by tiamats4esgares:

I feel like they're adding too much content at once. This should've been spread over 3 seasons. I have no idea why they did it all at once.

Because the endgame content aka cleaning monos becomes quickly boring.

[EstusWick]

Originally posted by Templar999:

From what i can imagine and see all of it just adds variable factors of extra loot or interchangeable factor adds.

What purpose would even force randomizing any of it be? Would they not want to see if the players would come up with a meta and then decide to balance the weaker less taken aspects?

For us to just hit the button and go, the "meta" set up would be RNG and we'd learn the best way as we played rather than theory crafting in an area of the game that's not about gear. I'm just suggesting that the introduction of the system be RNG focused so that it doesn't feel like we gotta do homework before we get the most out of it. It looks cool and like a great addition to the game. Just looks like more menu sitting and homework I gotta explain to my friends while convincing them "no, no, no it's not complicated at all"

[EstusWick]

Originally posted by Tyyne:

Originally posted by EstusWick:

I'm not.

I already hate the amount of time you have spend in menus in this game I've come with valid criticisms and gave a perfectly reasonable solution for an ARPG to induce more RNG and less menus surfing.

Do you have a point against that (the actual point of the post) or are you just here to defend a game that no one is attacking?

Read the patch notes and you can see they are reducing RNG all across the board. Adding more RNG into the game would be really silly. People want more control in the game as a whole, not less of it.

Why not just manually and randomly click buttons in the game and see what happens then? What purpose would a system in the game serve if you did not have to know how it works? Would it honestly be better if they introduced a new system and then said "no, you do now have to know how it works, just push a button and the game decides it for you randomly"? That would just take away the freedom of choice from the player, while also undermining any and all purpose of a new system, because to me what you are suggesting here seems like they could have just added new random events into an existing system (monolith echoes).

Maybe they will add a button in the future (and I am talking about season 3 or 4 or whatever) that actually does place things on the map randomly, but before that it is quite important to learn WHAT the system actually does.

Again, participate in the system once it is actually introduced, not before, and see how it works.

I'm suggesting that you spend your Woven Echoes to fill out the board still and you would even get to choose which Echoes go into the board but sitting and plotting them out is boring introduction to the system. if it was RNG based, people would learn naturally what combos and combinations of Echoes they would like to see together. You can teach people about your systems by letting them experience it rather than explain it to them, this is a videogame, that is how they're supposed to present new ideas to players.

I'm suggesting that this way of learning the system is the wrong way of going about it and will only turn people off of their new system. We didn't know what affixes that we wanted to farm and craft over in all the ways that we can now before we just picked them up from RNG drops. now after time what we hunt and look for is natural because it was introduced through playing the game. We don't know what Echoes do what or go where and what they do when in combination with what. Why would someone want to learn what is essentially idle game mechanics (put important object next to other important object on screen and watch results of YAY) to get better rewards from their ARPG?

I'm telling you that the way the system is being introduced is making me "not" want to participate. This is a common sentiment in the ARPG community. Show me the streamer reaction that was like "Oh ♥♥♥♥!! More menus and systems!!!YES!!!!"

I appreciate actually discussing the point of the post, thank you.

[Tyyne]

Originally posted by EstusWick:

Originally posted by Tyyne:

Read the patch notes and you can see they are reducing RNG all across the board. Adding more RNG into the game would be really silly. People want more control in the game as a whole, not less of it.

Why not just manually and randomly click buttons in the game and see what happens then? What purpose would a system in the game serve if you did not have to know how it works? Would it honestly be better if they introduced a new system and then said "no, you do now have to know how it works, just push a button and the game decides it for you randomly"? That would just take away the freedom of choice from the player, while also undermining any and all purpose of a new system, because to me what you are suggesting here seems like they could have just added new random events into an existing system (monolith echoes).

Maybe they will add a button in the future (and I am talking about season 3 or 4 or whatever) that actually does place things on the map randomly, but before that it is quite important to learn WHAT the system actually does.

Again, participate in the system once it is actually introduced, not before, and see how it works.

I'm suggesting that you spend your Woven Echoes to fill out the board still and you would even get to choose which Echoes go into the board but sitting and plotting them out is boring introduction to the system. if it was RNG based, people would learn naturally what combos and combinations of Echoes they would like to see together. You can teach people about your systems by letting them experience it rather than explain it to them, this is a videogame, that is how they're supposed to present new ideas to players.

I am under the impression that we will not be getting a billion Woven Echoes from the get-go so I don't think there won't be too much (over)thinking about them involved. Now people can put them slowly and deliberately where they want to or just slap them haphazardly all over the place. There's a choice to do either I guess.

I also can't see why people can't learn the combos naturally with the current system, and we are getting the experience of doing that system they way we want to without having to read too much. Again, I think you are overthinking this (and I do NOT mean that as an insult, it's just my observation and I am trying to coax your possible anxiety about the coming system) and it would be better to just wait how it actually will happen in the game after season 2 is actually released. Sure, they might actually add a button that just automatically allocates the echoes, you could make such suggestion straight to the developers somehow I guess?

Personally, I am... let's say 'realistically pessimistic' about season 2 and everything it will be introducing into the game.

Originally posted by EstusWick:

I appreciate actually discussing the point of the post, thank you.

I understand your concern about the possibilities here, mainly because my trust in EHG is not exactly stellar (I was VERY disappointed in season 1 and how things were implemented in that one). My point in all this is just wait and see. I like how there's quite a bit of room for experimentation in LE in general so the optimistic part of me is still trying to think that hey, maybe this season will be better.
Again, none of this is meant to be belittling your thoughts or concerns, I am just trying to convey the possible positive viewpoints in all this.

[WallaceTheSane]

Originally posted by EstusWick:

Originally posted by WallaceTheSane:

It sounds like you're overthinking it when you haven't even played it yet.

I'm not.

I already hate the amount of time you have spend in menus in this game I've come with valid criticisms and gave a perfectly reasonable solution for an ARPG to induce more RNG and less menus surfing.

Do you have a point against that (the actual point of the post) or are you just here to defend a game that no one is attacking?

Taking what I said out of context, and too far. I was being genuine, and wasn't saying it in a derogatory way.
I'm honestly surprised you feel there's way too much time spent in menus, as I don't really spend much time at all in the menus outside of putting up an initial loot filter. I guess I don't notice it as closely as you do? IDK.
As far as the new mechanic, I really don't think it'll take that long, and I don't think it will matter as much as you think it will either. As it stands now, you don't have to have any rhyme or reason to pick specific spots unless you're target farming, which will be greatly lessened by this new patch anyhow. I think it'll be less tedious than you think it will be, but we'll just wait and see.

[EstusWick]

Originally posted by WallaceTheSane:

Originally posted by EstusWick:

I'm not.

I already hate the amount of time you have spend in menus in this game I've come with valid criticisms and gave a perfectly reasonable solution for an ARPG to induce more RNG and less menus surfing.

Do you have a point against that (the actual point of the post) or are you just here to defend a game that no one is attacking?

Taking what I said out of context, and too far. I was being genuine, and wasn't saying it in a derogatory way.
I'm honestly surprised you feel there's way too much time spent in menus, as I don't really spend much time at all in the menus outside of putting up an initial loot filter. I guess I don't notice it as closely as you do? IDK.
As far as the new mechanic, I really don't think it'll take that long, and I don't think it will matter as much as you think it will either. As it stands now, you don't have to have any rhyme or reason to pick specific spots unless you're target farming, which will be greatly lessened by this new patch anyhow. I think it'll be less tedious than you think it will be, but we'll just wait and see.

I love the menus that exist currently, I love the focus on crafting in this ARPG specifically. I guess I'm really cautious about this game becoming POE, so many systems, so many complicated mechanics to "maximize the potential utilization of the data" (reference, if you get it you get it. lol).

I will admit Last Epoch developers have done a great job at avoiding over complication as they've introduced more mechanics than that of D4. Which is extremely impressive. I just want to like the system and initially it seems intimidating. Where as RNG mechanics in a ARPG is the least intimidating thing I can think of lol.

Thank you for discussing the point, I guess I came off more defensive myself in my response than I intended. I blame the fact that we are communicating via text. But I apologize regardless for my lack of courtesy.

[boy i'll whip ya head]

It wont be complicated. EHG does an amazing job at specifically making sure that things ARENT too complicated or intimidating like in PoE. What might seem complicated at first is actually extremely intuitive and simple once you actually start using it.