Limit of 5 usable skills?

[Bonder]

I can fully accept having a limit of 5 specializations. But why give a player 17 skills and then tell them you can use only 5?

To me this prohibits the average player from experimenting. They are investing into specializing into the 5 they select. Then as time goes on, they just stay on those skills. Preventing players from using other skills also prevents them from seeing potential in what other skill combinations could do.

In other similar games, I do use 5 skills most often, but I then have 2-4 situational skills. With some classes that are my favorites using 8 skills regularly plus a couple extra. If I hadn't already put in 50 hours into leveling, I would return this game if this is a hard dev decision that will never change.

its sad, because other than how extremely easy it is to play while leveling on normal, its a very well made game.

[Eguzky]

So people can make their own builds?
I mean, having 17 skills, but only 5 can be used, means different people playing the same class can play differently. Not exactly hard to understand.

[Bonder]

Thats a fair example. Having less skills creates build diversity.

But what if I want to use 5 different skills to attack and 2 other defensive or longer cooldown skills? I cant, I am restricted to being able to attack with less to allow the use of situational skills.

To me, this encourages having 1 single target skill, 1 multi-target skill, 1 defensive skill, 1 cooldown skill, 1 movement skill

Even with some variation, that doesnt seem like it encourages diversity.

I am not suggesting more specializations, simply more slots on the bar.

[Eguzky]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από The DevoMiezer:

Thats a fair example. Having less skills creates build diversity.

But what if I want to use 5 different skills to attack and 2 other defensive or longer cooldown skills? I cant, I am restricted to being able to attack with less to allow the use of situational skills.

To me, this encourages having 1 single target skill, 1 multi-target skill, 1 defensive skill, 1 cooldown skill, 1 movement skill

Even with some variation, that doesnt seem like it encourages diversity.

I am not suggesting more specializations, simply more slots on the bar.

So basically you're saying the game balance should change because you don't want to change your current build and instead want to expand on it?

That...kind of defeats the whole purpose of giving us 5 skills to make a build.
What happens when the next person says 'Why do we have 17 skills and can only use 7? Why not 10?'

A major part of game balance is knowing you have to pick 5 skills,and pick ones you enjoy, or work with how you want to play.
Not having more skills so you can do whatever you want.

[Bonder]

Im on board with getting 10 skill slots. I have played classes in other similar games where that is what I use. with another 10 un-used slots.
With there being 2 skill bars, it allows players to have one arrangement for killing bosses and another for killing everything else.

Although restricting players more than other games will force players to work within that requirement, it also restricts players from doing more.

To me this is a restriction I have never seen, and from what I have played so far, the only thing it is doing is limiting potential.

I really cannot imagine what harm or loss of balance it could possibly have to give more slots.

[Ravenkid9266]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από The DevoMiezer:

Im on board with getting 10 skill slots. I have played classes in other similar games where that is what I use. with another 10 un-used slots.
With there being 2 skill bars, it allows players to have one arrangement for killing bosses and another for killing everything else.

Although restricting players more than other games will force players to work within that requirement, it also restricts players from doing more.

To me this is a restriction I have never seen, and from what I have played so far, the only thing it is doing is limiting potential.

I really cannot imagine what harm or loss of balance it could possibly have to give more slots.

This is a delicate subject, on one hand personally I would like more then 5 skills, on the other I realize how difficult to balance them that it would quickly become.

Lets for example look at some builds, by looking at them you tend to find that a lot of them typically focus on one main attack skill and many other skills are set to auto-cast. This can quickly become a problem as the number of auto-cast abilities can spiral out of control. Not just because of say the free damage, but the side benefits such as with Rogue Shurikens, but with other skills as well such as movement or even "panic" skills like Rebuke. Now perhaps there is a world where you could increase the number of skills but also "lock" the number of movement skills to 1, but it seems like more of a hassle given the state of the game currently.

There already is/was somewhat of a zoomy meta that developed around auto-cast going fast, the developers attempted to tap this down with a semi-recent change, if you allowed more then 5 skills suddenly the zoomey builds get wacky movement speed.

That is all before you look into the need aspect, People have already put down T4 Jurla, the hardest boss, in 6 seconds, no idea if it is still current though.

Then we can put on our tinfoil hats for a moment and consider MP. if you ascribe to the entirely evidence less theory that the remaining classes are going to have more support style skills for MP you can see how much of a nightmare balance would become.

[RhodosGuard]

No matter how many slots you get,it wont change that unspecialized skills are gonna scale like ♥♥♥♥ in later levels.

So. 5 slots is good for me, the only thing I'd say they could do would be a reserved non specialized slot, where you can put a movement skill without having to specialize it.

[Zeel Ara]

Some people like having to make tricky choices. Others don't. Not all game systems appeals to everybody. That you're one of the people that don't like a given type of system does not constitute an argument against the core design.

You could go the argument that the game should be catering to you personally instead of others, but I have a hard time imagining how you'd do that in a convincing manner.

You just don't like the core game design. That's okay. You're not obligated to.

[Bonder]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Ravenkid9266:

That is all before you look into the need aspect, People have already put down T4 Jurla, the hardest boss, in 6 seconds, no idea if it is still current though.

It would seem adding some skill slots for skills without specialization might not change balance.

I will just have to play more to learn how this limitation is beneficial to the players.

[Bonder]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Ratley:

You just don't like the core game design. That's okay. You're not obligated to.

It not as simple as I don't like it.
It is more that I don't understand how this a positive change to this type of game.

[Ravenkid9266]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από The DevoMiezer:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Ravenkid9266:

That is all before you look into the need aspect, People have already put down T4 Jurla, the hardest boss, in 6 seconds, no idea if it is still current though.

It would seem adding some skill slots for skills without specialization might not change balance.

I will just have to play more to learn how this limitation is beneficial to the players.

Perhaps you are correct? I do not know but I can see a world where slapping a no specialization additional skill onto existing builds would result in a free movement at the least. Given that the devs already attempted to tap down the zoomy meta its a lot like when MTG unbanns a card, the risk/reward is always questionable.

A lot of people will tell you that the limitation encourages player choice, I believe it actually restricts it. If you pop over to LE Builder for example how many builds are 4/5 of the same skills, if not the entire same skills with minor variation in the skill trees.

[RhodosGuard]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Ravenkid9266:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από The DevoMiezer:

It would seem adding some skill slots for skills without specialization might not change balance.

I will just have to play more to learn how this limitation is beneficial to the players.

Perhaps you are correct? I do not know but I can see a world where slapping a no specialization additional skill onto existing builds would result in a free movement at the least. Given that the devs already attempted to tap down the zoomy meta its a lot like when MTG unbanns a card, the risk/reward is always questionable.

A lot of people will tell you that the limitation encourages player choice, I believe it actually restricts it. If you pop over to LE Builder for example how many builds are 4/5 of the same skills, if not the entire same skills with minor variation in the skill trees.

That wouldnt change if you could have more slots though?
You can still only specialize 5 skills, so builds would stay literally the same just that you have more useless skills you will never use on your board, because they are not specialized. if you wanted more build variety, then there would need to be more specialization slots (unlikely) more core synergies (doable) or more highly specialized unqiue gear, as well as more high-level versions of existing unique gear.

You dont get build variety for allowing people to allot slots to skill that are mostly useless to their gameplay.

Why use a skill that deals no damage, if your entire build is geared towards spamming 2 buttons and occassionally using your movement skill?

[Bonder]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από RhodosGuard:

Why use a skill that deals no damage, if your entire build is geared towards spamming 2 buttons and occassionally using your movement skill?

This is exactly why limiting the number of skills is an issue.
arpg should not be played with 1 single target skill and 1 multi-target

[Ravenkid9266]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από RhodosGuard:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Ravenkid9266:

Perhaps you are correct? I do not know but I can see a world where slapping a no specialization additional skill onto existing builds would result in a free movement at the least. Given that the devs already attempted to tap down the zoomy meta its a lot like when MTG unbanns a card, the risk/reward is always questionable.

A lot of people will tell you that the limitation encourages player choice, I believe it actually restricts it. If you pop over to LE Builder for example how many builds are 4/5 of the same skills, if not the entire same skills with minor variation in the skill trees.

That wouldnt change if you could have more slots though?
You can still only specialize 5 skills, so builds would stay literally the same just that you have more useless skills you will never use on your board, because they are not specialized. if you wanted more build variety, then there would need to be more specialization slots (unlikely) more core synergies (doable) or more highly specialized unqiue gear, as well as more high-level versions of existing unique gear.

You dont get build variety for allowing people to allot slots to skill that are mostly useless to their gameplay.

Why use a skill that deals no damage, if your entire build is geared towards spamming 2 buttons and occassionally using your movement skill?

I think there is a disconnect in what I am saying and how you are reading it, or perhaps it is the reverse?

[RhodosGuard]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από The DevoMiezer:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από RhodosGuard:

Why use a skill that deals no damage, if your entire build is geared towards spamming 2 buttons and occassionally using your movement skill?

This is exactly why limiting the number of skills is an issue.
arpg should not be played with 1 single target skill and 1 multi-target

Who decides that?
It all depends on the games skill system.

In a game like TQ or GD, limiting skills would be stupid, because the skill system forces you to spread out your points, because with how many points you get, and what kind of challenges the game throws at you, it is impossible to create a build that gets away with underusing your toolset, so you need a large bar to fit all your tools that all do different things.

In this game, by specializing skills, you decide each skills role in your build.
The only way you would not get builds that rely on a smaller amount of skills, is if you changed the way a build is formed completely. If you change Specialization and how powerful a skill can get through them.
Basically, if you dont like being limited to "1 single target skill and 1 multi-target" then I guess this is just the wrong game for you.

Not to mention that almost all ARPGs rely on some variation of that.
It's just the natural order. Unless all your skills serve explicitely different purposes, your skill-setup will always burn down to 1 ST and 1 AoE, because why use skills that deal less damage, unless they provide a utility your other skills cant?

ANd in this game, through specialization, you decide which utility is provided by which skill.

How would you redesign this game to accomplish balance with more skills?

In the end, this comment reads like you dont like the skill system at it's core, which means,.... maybe this game just isnt for you? Go play Grim Dawn. It's a great game.
You cant expect them to rework the complete base of their game, just because you dont like the philosophy behind it.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Ravenkid9266:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από RhodosGuard:

That wouldnt change if you could have more slots though?
You can still only specialize 5 skills, so builds would stay literally the same just that you have more useless skills you will never use on your board, because they are not specialized. if you wanted more build variety, then there would need to be more specialization slots (unlikely) more core synergies (doable) or more highly specialized unqiue gear, as well as more high-level versions of existing unique gear.

You dont get build variety for allowing people to allot slots to skill that are mostly useless to their gameplay.

Why use a skill that deals no damage, if your entire build is geared towards spamming 2 buttons and occassionally using your movement skill?

I think there is a disconnect in what I am saying and how you are reading it, or perhaps it is the reverse?

You literally said, that builds online only use the same 4/5 skills.
That wouldnt change with more spaces for skills, because you would still only specialize 4/5 skills, and therefore, at max, only use an additional movement skill, because all other skills have exponentially less value, when they are not specialized.

Unless you want players to be able to specialize 7/10 skills, at which point you will either kill the games balance completely, or people will just not use the extra specialization, because with 5 specialized skills, you can mostly fill all utilities you will need.

[Drake]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από The DevoMiezer:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από RhodosGuard:

Why use a skill that deals no damage, if your entire build is geared towards spamming 2 buttons and occassionally using your movement skill?

This is exactly why limiting the number of skills is an issue.
arpg should not be played with 1 single target skill and 1 multi-target

Arpg. That's the problem. Arpg is a vague term. Last epoch is not just a arpg, it's an H&S.
And an H&S is supposed to have that restricted skill use. Those are fast paced games, an h&s is pretty much a shoot em up pacing with an rpg sheet development, if you have the time to use 10 different types of abilities most of the time, there is an issue.