Why do we have to grind in normal monoliths?

[LordTimmah]

I am confused about not being able to reach empowered monoliths without fighting a harbinger double boss fight? Regular players know that we have better odds for gear drops and better experience with empowered timelines. But now we have to kill a harbinger along with the final timeline boss to unlock them, and THEN we can skip harbingers if we want to? This doesn't make sense to me. If we die, we lose stability, meaning we have to go back and do some echoes for another try. This wastes the player's time...I can't learn a boss and practice if I am constantly being interrupted and having to do something tedious just for another attempt.

This is similar to TS...if I want to make a legendary item, I have to slog through a dungeon and kill one of the hardest bosses in the game....if I die, I have to repeat the whole thing (T1+2 aren't bad....T3+ is tough). Respect the player's time.

The harbinger that spawns after the final level 90 is much more tanky and dangerous than the boss. I can kill the boss regularly, no problem. I can move through level 90 echoes at level 82, no problem. Why then can't I enter empowered timelines to farm for better gear, blessings, and choose to engage with the new end game content when I want to? I don't want to grind forever on normal timelines just to be able to beat this guy...it takes way too long and slows down character progression way too much. It is de-motivating...especially since we USED to be able to do it.

The developers used to let us get to empowered monoliths without a double boss fight. That way, we had a choice....if empowered was too tough, we could drop to normal. If it wasn't, we could advance our character. Now, we don't have a choice. The devs are not letting us advance our character....they are doing the same thing Blizzard did when they dropped that huge nerf on D4 toons...they are forcing us to spend more time at a level that they know is a much slower progression and making it harder for us to upgrade our gear.

Solution: make all harbingers optional content and only have them active in empowered timelines. Therefore, the player has choice. If I want to grind to level 100 and never touch a harbinger, I should be able to do that. If I want to try and fight harbingers the second I get to empowered, I should be able to do that. Make the new faction accessible as soon as you enter empowered and have NPC's explain how harbingers work. Let us choose to fight them when we want to.

Don't gate-keep content we used to have access to.

[Gilver Redgrave]

The first Harbingers are a brickwall that tells you that you are not ready for Lv100 Monliths. If you cant beat them you wont be happy in Empowered Monoliths.

They changed the balance and 100 corruption now is far worse then last cycle.

[LordTimmah]

Originally posted by Gilver Redgrave:

The first Harbingers are a brickwall that tells you that you are not ready for Lv100 Monliths. If you cant beat them you wont be happy in Empowered Monoliths.

They changed the balance and 100 corruption now is far worse then last cycle.

This doesn't make sense. Are you saying the devs now intend for us to spend more time in normal monoliths grinding for gear that we know (we as in regular players) will be worse off on average? Much less experience for leveling up?

From my perspective, that slows things down way too much. I've lost the feeling of progression. Did they buff drops in normal monoliths? Also, I went back and read the patch notes for 1.1...I don't see any reference to making empowered timelines more difficult than they were before.

[Gilver Redgrave]

Originally posted by LordTimmah:

Also, I went back and read the patch notes for 1.1...I don't see any reference to making empowered timelines more difficult than they were before.

The overall balance of the game was changes to be more in line with the new evade mechanics. If it weren you wouldnt have any problems killing the Harbinger.

[Psojed]

1) We already told you on the official forums, that this is an intended change.
2) You still have your choice. You can kill it right away and move on to empowered, or drop to normal, just like before.

So the question you should be asking yourself is: why can't you simply kill the first harbinger like everyone else?

For example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnBh7pBRgCA

[Tyyne]

If you can't deal with the harbinger in normal monos, you ain't ready for empowered.

[LordTimmah]

See, a lot of you are missing the point of my post. I have played empowered...I know what they are like, and I've been there! Now I am frustrated that I can't get there anymore. I want to play empowered, I know I am able to. So please...read my post a little more closely.

This is not about difficulty. This is about what the developers did to change the game and, as Gilver said, "put up a brick wall." They should not have done that, because the players who used to push into empowered now have to spend more time at normal before we can get to empowered. They slowed down progression.

This is a step backwards for those of us who used to push into empowered.

I spent the time learning Gaspar and I overcame. I am not rewarded for that like I used to be. This is what is bugging me. I know that progression is slower on normal...I know I am ready for empowered. So please...stop making comments about how I am not ready for empowered.

[LordTimmah]

Originally posted by Psojed:

1) We already told you on the official forums, that this is an intended change.
2) You still have your choice. You can kill it right away and move on to empowered, or drop to normal, just like before.

So the question you should be asking yourself is: why can't you simply kill the first harbinger like everyone else?

For example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnBh7pBRgCA

See, I moved here to start a conversation and get away from you. I read your other posts...all you do is put people down and disagree with them. You don't have any empathy or try to add to a conversation, so from this point on, you are being blocked by me.

Posting memes and linking youtube videos to make people feel bad is not helpful. I was right when I assessed YOUR character as child-like and immature. So unless you are willing to be helpful, please don't comment and let me have a quality conversation with the community here.

[Tyyne]

Originally posted by LordTimmah:

See, a lot of you are missing the point of my post. I have played empowered...I know what they are like, and I've been there! Now I am frustrated that I can't get there anymore. I want to play empowered, I know I am able to. So please...read my post a little more closely.

This is not about difficulty. This is about what the developers did to change the game and, as Gilver said, "put up a brick wall." They should not have done that, because the players who used to push into empowered now have to spend more time at normal before we can get to empowered. They slowed down progression.

This is a step backwards for those of us who used to push into empowered.

I spent the time learning Gaspar and I overcame. I am not rewarded for that like I used to be. This is what is bugging me. I know that progression is slower on normal...I know I am ready for empowered. So please...stop making comments about how I am not ready for empowered.

Dude, we understand perfectly what this post is about, and it's about difficulty, since, you know, not being able to beat a boss means it's too difficult for you to handle. Again, if you can't beat Harbinger (and seemingly Gaspar) in normal monos, it means you have no business going empowered ones. The harbinger is barely nothing more than a speed bump if your build (and gear) is even somewhat decent.

[LordTimmah]

Originally posted by Tyyne:

Originally posted by LordTimmah:

See, a lot of you are missing the point of my post. I have played empowered...I know what they are like, and I've been there! Now I am frustrated that I can't get there anymore. I want to play empowered, I know I am able to. So please...read my post a little more closely.

This is not about difficulty. This is about what the developers did to change the game and, as Gilver said, "put up a brick wall." They should not have done that, because the players who used to push into empowered now have to spend more time at normal before we can get to empowered. They slowed down progression.

This is a step backwards for those of us who used to push into empowered.

I spent the time learning Gaspar and I overcame. I am not rewarded for that like I used to be. This is what is bugging me. I know that progression is slower on normal...I know I am ready for empowered. So please...stop making comments about how I am not ready for empowered.

Dude, we understand perfectly what this post is about, and it's about difficulty, since, you know, not being able to beat a boss means it's too difficult for you to handle. Again, if you can't beat Harbinger (and seemingly Gaspar) in normal monos, it means you have no business going empowered ones. The harbinger is barely nothing more than a speed bump if your build (and gear) is even somewhat decent.

Okay, I can beat Gaspar, no "seemingly" about it. Let's be clear on that. It took many attempts to learn the boss, but I did it.

Take a step back for a second, pre-1.1. If I beat Gaspar (and the other two level 90's), I'd have access to empowered monoliths. Better experience, better gear drops (well, better odds at gear drops). Now, I get ganked by a second boss with a greater health pool and higher damage without warning.

Nothing in the patch notes said they were doing this. Nothing in the patch notes said they buffed the difficulty of 100 corruption. They advertised these harbingers as pinnacle content that were "unlocked" after the level 90 monoliths. They never said it was a required piece of content to advance a character. When I read those notes, I thought to myself "cool, new bosses to chase." Side note: love the new nemesis system.

So now, answer me this: the developers intended to slow down player progression, correct?

If so, then this is what is bothering me. If I really wanted to, I could spend another 10-20 hours in normal grinding away to *hopefully* get better gear and gain some levels to try again. But I don't want to do that because I know it is much slower (and quite frankly, a bit boring, but that is my opinion). The reason being is that BEFORE 1.1, I didn't have to, and now I do, which is a "nerf" on player progression. Wouldn't you agree?

Let me finish with a huge thank-you to the posters here for having a good conversation without being mean. I appreciate that.

As a side note, I am playing a melee Sentinel/Forgeguard. I think if I did it on my ice mage I'd have an easier time. This, in my opinion, is imbalance. But I am not 100% sure on this.

[Psojed]

Originally posted by LordTimmah:

...

I am helpful.
You're the one who decided to disregard the help that was offered on the official forums.

In this topic, you said that you can move through echoes at lvl 82 no problem, and you asked why do you have to grind the normal monolith. I answered:
You don't have to grind anything. You can kill the first harbinger right away and continue to empowered monolith. And I provided a showcase.

If you feel offended by others being able to kill the first harbinger, that's a YOU problem, and I'm not obligated to help you with that :)

[Tyyne]

Originally posted by LordTimmah:

Originally posted by Tyyne:

Dude, we understand perfectly what this post is about, and it's about difficulty, since, you know, not being able to beat a boss means it's too difficult for you to handle. Again, if you can't beat Harbinger (and seemingly Gaspar) in normal monos, it means you have no business going empowered ones. The harbinger is barely nothing more than a speed bump if your build (and gear) is even somewhat decent.

Okay, I can beat Gaspar, no "seemingly" about it. Let's be clear on that. It took many attempts to learn the boss, but I did it.

Take a step back for a second, pre-1.1. If I beat Gaspar (and the other two level 90's), I'd have access to empowered monoliths. Better experience, better gear drops (well, better odds at gear drops). Now, I get ganked by a second boss with a greater health pool and higher damage without warning.

Nothing in the patch notes said they were doing this. Nothing in the patch notes said they buffed the difficulty of 100 corruption. They advertised these harbingers as pinnacle content that were "unlocked" after the level 90 monoliths. They never said it was a required piece of content to advance a character. When I read those notes, I thought to myself "cool, new bosses to chase." Side note: love the new nemesis system.

So now, answer me this: the developers intended to slow down player progression, correct?

If so, then this is what is bothering me. If I really wanted to, I could spend another 10-20 hours in normal grinding away to *hopefully* get better gear and gain some levels to try again. But I don't want to do that because I know it is much slower (and quite frankly, a bit boring, but that is my opinion). The reason being is that BEFORE 1.1, I didn't have to, and now I do, which is a "nerf" on player progression. Wouldn't you agree?

Let me finish with a huge thank-you to the posters here for having a good conversation without being mean. I appreciate that.

As a side note, I am playing a melee Sentinel/Forgeguard. I think if I did it on my ice mage I'd have an easier time. This, in my opinion, is imbalance. But I am not 100% sure on this.

First time I did beat the harbinger was with a Vengeance/Smite Paladin. On the first try. With SSF gear and with a build that was far away from being optimal. The fight slowed my progress for about 2-4 minutes I guess? Not a huge nerf to player progression, so I really can't agree with you. It is also the ONLY harbinger you HAVE to fight in order to progress. The first harbinger that gave me any problems was the Formosus one at 175 corruption and I actually had to change the build (because melee<ranged), and I could have just checked the box of not fighting it yet.
If a boss/harbinger/whatever is giving you problems, you could just ask for help, check some videos on YT or something instead of demanding that the game being changed because you can not handle something.

I haven't seen a single player complain how new content (aka. the Harbingers) nerfs player progression since at the same time we have even more chances of getting legendaries (Nemesis). This is literally a YOU problem. I haven't checked what other people have said about this on the official forums but I have a hunch that since you had to make a thread a similar thread here, you did not get the answers you wanted, instead getting answers more like these you have here.

[Ammo]

lol you don't have to stay too long in normal monolith if you have decent enough build to kill harb. like all the other said git gud.

[Tyyne]

And oh btw OP, my previous post is not meant to mock you or your skills, apologies if it might appear as such. If you want tips or advice regarding the harbinger fight and/or help with your build, let me know. I'd be happy to help if I can.
The current situation with different builds (and it affects harbinger fights quite a bit) is that melee is still in a bad place compared to ranged.

[oldschooldiablo]

Originally posted by Gilver Redgrave:

Originally posted by LordTimmah:

Also, I went back and read the patch notes for 1.1...I don't see any reference to making empowered timelines more difficult than they were before.

The overall balance of the game was changes to be more in line with the new evade mechanics. If it weren you wouldnt have any problems killing the Harbinger.

No it wasn't. Monos where not touched balance wise. In 1.1

[oldschooldiablo]

Originally posted by LordTimmah:

I am confused about not being able to reach empowered monoliths without fighting a harbinger double boss fight? Regular players know that we have better odds for gear drops and better experience with empowered timelines. But now we have to kill a harbinger along with the final timeline boss to unlock them, and THEN we can skip harbingers if we want to? This doesn't make sense to me. If we die, we lose stability, meaning we have to go back and do some echoes for another try. This wastes the player's time...I can't learn a boss and practice if I am constantly being interrupted and having to do something tedious just for another attempt.

This is similar to TS...if I want to make a legendary item, I have to slog through a dungeon and kill one of the hardest bosses in the game....if I die, I have to repeat the whole thing (T1+2 aren't bad....T3+ is tough). Respect the player's time.

The harbinger that spawns after the final level 90 is much more tanky and dangerous than the boss. I can kill the boss regularly, no problem. I can move through level 90 echoes at level 82, no problem. Why then can't I enter empowered timelines to farm for better gear, blessings, and choose to engage with the new end game content when I want to? I don't want to grind forever on normal timelines just to be able to beat this guy...it takes way too long and slows down character progression way too much. It is de-motivating...especially since we USED to be able to do it.

The developers used to let us get to empowered monoliths without a double boss fight. That way, we had a choice....if empowered was too tough, we could drop to normal. If it wasn't, we could advance our character. Now, we don't have a choice. The devs are not letting us advance our character....they are doing the same thing Blizzard did when they dropped that huge nerf on D4 toons...they are forcing us to spend more time at a level that they know is a much slower progression and making it harder for us to upgrade our gear.

Solution: make all harbingers optional content and only have them active in empowered timelines. Therefore, the player has choice. If I want to grind to level 100 and never touch a harbinger, I should be able to do that. If I want to try and fight harbingers the second I get to empowered, I should be able to do that. Make the new faction accessible as soon as you enter empowered and have NPC's explain how harbingers work. Let us choose to fight them when we want to.

Don't gate-keep content we used to have access to.

Not sure why no one has said this to u yet.

Harbinger fights can then be toggled on/off from the Boss Echo rewards panel

U do not have to fight them

Edit. Reading thag again it does seem like u have to kill the first harbinger then this option unlocks.

That imo needs to be changed. Players that don't want to fight them shouldn't have to fight the first one.