What is this garbage respec system?

[[R-K] WARLORD]

Youre telling me if i want to respect my specialized abilities i have to start over with only half or less skill points in them? How am i supposed to try a new build late game when im starting with half my skill points? 2024 and ARPG devs are still brainrotted and think letting people try new builds freely is going to break the game.

[XartaX]

Origineel geplaatst door Isaac7788:

is there any items or methods to mitigate the losses during specialization respec?

Your minimum starting level when total respeccing goes up over time. And you also get an xp bonus to leveling the skill until it catches up. It's very quick.

[Dizi]

Origineel geplaatst door Elgareth:

Origineel geplaatst door Wintermist:

You are saying nothing.

For starters, I am not in the game world. I'm playing the game set in that world. It makes total sense to discuss the game rules, we're not discussing laws of physics. You know this.

Oh, I thought the "It makes no sense that you take a skill out and suddenly forgot it all " part talked about how it doesn't make sense that the character forgets what he was able to do with the skill, as in ingame-logic. If not I don't really get what that was about, but nevermind then.

Origineel geplaatst door Wintermist:

For the rest, you're just stating the exact state of the game, which we already know and give reasons why we want to change it.

The last bit is just nonsense in regards to this topic. The hardship is beating the game, not getting annoyed by missing quality of life features.

Yes, I'm stating the state of the game because I agree with the devs that this is useful, and good design. I'm defending the game as it is and give my reasons why I think it should stay that way.

And I disagree on the hardship. Hardship is not only beating the game, but everything in place before that as well. Like needing Keys to enter dungeons. Needing to beat Monoliths multiple times to get different boosts each time. And needing to relevel skills and pay gold to respec passives.
All this plays together to make the gameplay feel better in the grand scheme of things. And respeccing costs of time/coins is an important part of that IMHO.

In the end it boils down to personal opinion at that point, both extremes (no respec at all and complete freedom to respec everything instantly) and everything inbetween has merits, I think LE found a good middle way.

It doesn't matter, but just as info: This topic was already discussed for years in the official LE forums during the early access phase, there are thousands of posts with all possible opinions on this and every argument was already made hundreds of times. The current system is the compromise the Devs decided as best. So it's only discussing for the discussions sake at this point. I personally have some fun in such discussions, just FYI that nothing will change the current system in LE :-D

Origineel geplaatst door enu:

if its to easy to get points back, why bother taking them away in the first place, it adds nothing

Because it's at least a little opportunity cost to make your choices matter that little bit more. That's what it adds.
If it would be so useless and it's so easy to get points back, why bother critizing it? :-) Because it does change things, a little bit. Enough to get people riled up about it, but also enough to make people think about their choices a bit.

Honestly, I get your point. I played D1, D2, D3, D2R, D4, Titan Quest, Grim Dawn, Lost Ark, Warhammer Inquisitor, Victor Vran, Wolcen and and and. Back when I played D2 I had no problem with permanent skill points. I had time, and there weren't so many games to play, so I started a new char. Nowadays? There are many games to play, and only few players stick to one game for months or years. Plus, we get older, maybe have a family. So we have less time. Maybe only an hour or 2 at a evening. And this is where it starts to be stupid. I am that kind of player nowadays. And I try to "build" my own character. So I start with LE and I don't know the skills, I don't know what they exactly do. Of course there is a description, but it is something completely different to see that skill in action.
Example? I play a rogue, what mastery I want to play? I think falconeer, want to try that. Skill "puncture" I thought it is just a penetrating arrow which hits the enemies behind. But it was not stated, that it has quite a big width so it hits like 2m left and right.
So I want to test stuff. Especially in the early stage. It is not only a decision to make, but a "How does it feel with my character and in this game". In some games I started with a rogue type class with bow and arrow but changed to daggers because it felt just better. Or I played and did not find any good bow but daggers and changed my character for that (or vice versa). I usually try skills for like 30 minutes to "feel" it.
And thats what I dont like at all here. I get a new skill, I read it. "Ok sounds interessting" lets try it and then, maybe after just 10 minutes I think "ok, not really that one for me, thought it would be different, I take the other skill back" and I lose skill points for that?
You say its easy in the endgame to get them back. And this is what I don't get at all then.

1. If it is so easy (some wrote here about like 15-30 minutes). Why is losing a point anyway?
2. Make it losing points from a certain level. You have the last new skill with level x ("just" started, no idea with what level that is). But for example you get the last skill with level 30, then let me pick that skill and make it "losing points" after that or maybe like 1 level later, with 31 then.
3. wouldn't it be an idea to save the skill levels but that they are exclusively? Like puncture once to level 20 it keeps there, but if I decide to use shurikens, and I never used them before they are still at level 1. And so on.

Usually I am that kind of player who builds his character around the weapon or loot. e.g. I want to play with daggers but I just keep finding bow or crossbow, or I find something like a legendary crossbow which could boost my char really great. Then I give it a try, change my skills and play along with that.

My biggest point out there in games is: Implement it, you don't have to use it. Play the game you like, the way you like. If respec is completely free, it doesn't mean that you have to use it like this. People do? Okay thats the way for them. Not my way. But limiting it by a mechanic which does not seems to be very strict (getting points back quite fast later) does not make that much sense.

The system right now (if it is really posible to get the points back in like 30minutes) does not punish the "quick build change" in the late games, but it does punish the "getting to know my character and skills" learning in the early stage.

So again, the biggest question is, why not implementing (for free, bit gold or s.th. diff.) and just not using it. I know guys which play ARPGs like D2, once I used a skill point I will not respec it, no matter if it is allowed by the game or not. You can overthink every choice for hours if you want and if you set yourself that limit, but somebody else maybe wants to have fun for that hour he/she has time for that game. Games like this are NEVER played one way. There are guys who have that roleplaying element in it, and guys who don't...

[Hiarcs]

Origineel geplaatst door aqvamare:

Origineel geplaatst door R-K WARLORD:

Youre telling me if i want to respect my specialized abilities i have to start over with only half or less skill points in them? How am i supposed to try a new build late game when im starting with half my skill points? 2024 and ARPG devs are still brainrotted and think letting people try new builds freely is going to break the game.

You level super fast skills in late-game, to fill up the missing 10 points of 20.

You have 25 character slots, to experiement fully different builds, if you dislike respeccing.

there is even a skip campaign dungeon in act 2.

I don't really agree with that either. Skipping the campaign is the biggest nonsense that's often talked about here. If you skip the campaign, you can't unlock the remaining space for Idols. There's no other way to unlock it than by completing missions in the campaign.

Plus, even if you skipped the campaign, with a low level, you really can't play endgame content! If you think otherwise, make a video of yourself choosing a specialization at level 20 and immediately playing Monolith at level 20 against enemies who are level 50! That's just not how the game works! Don't spread lies how you have extremely big damage at level 20, it is absolutely not true! You won't have enough damage or life, and you can't even carry high level items with such a low level character, so endgame content is absolutely unplayable at that character level!

I understand that person, they just don't want to farm everything from scratch. And a full build really requires level 100, not level 80! Level 80 means you're missing 20 passive points, and that's a huge amount of skill points!

Plus, leveling a character from level 90 is really difficult and takes an extremely long time. I even tried cheating one character in offline mode to set corruption to 5000, and still, farming from level 90 was extremely, extremely slow!

And don't forget that the Last Epoch developers don't want players below level 50 to play Monolith! Or have you not read the changes that came with version 1.0? They set it up so that if you play Monolith below level 50, you'll have an extreme experience nerf, meaning you'll farm experience multiple times slower than when playing the campaign!!!! The reason is that the developers don't want it to be possible to level up characters quickly, as it is, for example, possible in Diablo 3!

[Hiarcs]

Origineel geplaatst door Ellye:

Origineel geplaatst door R-K WARLORD:

You literally made no argument here. Just "permanence is good" and still didnt even give one reason why.

And you never made an argument for why "convenience is good" either.

Sounds counter-intuitive to say that too much convenience might be a bad thing, but if you about it, it's clear that there's a line somewhere it becomes bad.

If you just started a new character at max level that would be very convenient. Would that be fun?

If you could instantly respec everything about your character, including Mastery and Class choice, so that you'd never need to level more than one character, that would be very convenient. Would that be fun?

If you can just completely swap your build on a whim and your character that spend 80 levels being one thing suddenly became something else with no effort, that is very convenient. Is that fun? For me, it isn't.

And I feel people sabotage their own fun too much without even realising it.

Anyway, down to more mechanical reasons: if swapping was instantaneous, the optimal way to play would involve constantly tweaking your build for each different thing you'd do. You usually don't want the optimal way to play something to be that finicky.

That's why a minor barrier like the one we have has some purpose still.

It is possible in Diablo 3 and tons of Blizzard sheeps and players are telling, it is fun and very good feature.

[Elgareth]

Origineel geplaatst door Dizi:

Honestly, I get your point. I played D1, D2, D3, D2R, D4, Titan Quest, Grim Dawn, Lost Ark, Warhammer Inquisitor, Victor Vran, Wolcen and and and. Back when I played D2 I had no problem with permanent skill points. I had time, and there weren't so many games to play, so I started a new char. Nowadays? There are many games to play, and only few players stick to one game for months or years. Plus, we get older, maybe have a family. So we have less time. Maybe only an hour or 2 at a evening. And this is where it starts to be stupid. I am that kind of player nowadays. And I try to "build" my own character. So I start with LE and I don't know the skills, I don't know what they exactly do. Of course there is a description, but it is something completely different to see that skill in action.
Example? I play a rogue, what mastery I want to play? I think falconeer, want to try that. Skill "puncture" I thought it is just a penetrating arrow which hits the enemies behind. But it was not stated, that it has quite a big width so it hits like 2m left and right.
So I want to test stuff. Especially in the early stage. It is not only a decision to make, but a "How does it feel with my character and in this game". In some games I started with a rogue type class with bow and arrow but changed to daggers because it felt just better. Or I played and did not find any good bow but daggers and changed my character for that (or vice versa). I usually try skills for like 30 minutes to "feel" it.
And thats what I dont like at all here. I get a new skill, I read it. "Ok sounds interessting" lets try it and then, maybe after just 10 minutes I think "ok, not really that one for me, thought it would be different, I take the other skill back" and I lose skill points for that?
You say its easy in the endgame to get them back. And this is what I don't get at all then.

1. If it is so easy (some wrote here about like 15-30 minutes). Why is losing a point anyway?
2. Make it losing points from a certain level. You have the last new skill with level x ("just" started, no idea with what level that is). But for example you get the last skill with level 30, then let me pick that skill and make it "losing points" after that or maybe like 1 level later, with 31 then.
3. wouldn't it be an idea to save the skill levels but that they are exclusively? Like puncture once to level 20 it keeps there, but if I decide to use shurikens, and I never used them before they are still at level 1. And so on.

Usually I am that kind of player who builds his character around the weapon or loot. e.g. I want to play with daggers but I just keep finding bow or crossbow, or I find something like a legendary crossbow which could boost my char really great. Then I give it a try, change my skills and play along with that.

My biggest point out there in games is: Implement it, you don't have to use it. Play the game you like, the way you like. If respec is completely free, it doesn't mean that you have to use it like this. People do? Okay thats the way for them. Not my way. But limiting it by a mechanic which does not seems to be very strict (getting points back quite fast later) does not make that much sense.

The system right now (if it is really posible to get the points back in like 30minutes) does not punish the "quick build change" in the late games, but it does punish the "getting to know my character and skills" learning in the early stage.

So again, the biggest question is, why not implementing (for free, bit gold or s.th. diff.) and just not using it. I know guys which play ARPGs like D2, once I used a skill point I will not respec it, no matter if it is allowed by the game or not. You can overthink every choice for hours if you want and if you set yourself that limit, but somebody else maybe wants to have fun for that hour he/she has time for that game. Games like this are NEVER played one way. There are guys who have that roleplaying element in it, and guys who don't...

I'm in the same boat as you, doing nothing but gaming after school, during the holidays etc., and now working full-time, in your own flat with all the chores associated with it, a girlfriend and dog that require time etc. etc.

The argument "why not make it free, you don't have to use it" is always moot IMHO, by that logic you could implement a cheat-engine to instantly grants you maxlvl and lets you choose your gear. You don't have to use it if you don't want to.
That's obviously very exaggerated, but it still has the same problem at its core: It loses the meaning when there is a simple way to get what you are working for.
Yes, I can artificially hinder myself in D3 by gambling for 40 Million Gold and just selling the gains to the NPC to destroy my gold whenever I respec, but that doesn't make the choices more meaningful when I know that I can just do it for free.

Origineel geplaatst door Dizi:

2. Make it losing points from a certain level. You have the last new skill with level x ("just" started, no idea with what level that is). But for example you get the last skill with level 30, then let me pick that skill and make it "losing points" after that or maybe like 1 level later, with 31 then.

The last skill might be gotten as late as level 100, as you can gain more skills by putting passive points into the other 2 masteries as well.

Origineel geplaatst door Dizi:

And thats what I dont like at all here. I get a new skill, I read it. "Ok sounds interessting" lets try it and then, maybe after just 10 minutes I think "ok, not really that one for me, thought it would be different, I take the other skill back" and I lose skill points for that?
You say its easy in the endgame to get them back. And this is what I don't get at all then.
.
.
.
Usually I am that kind of player who builds his character around the weapon or loot. e.g. I want to play with daggers but I just keep finding bow or crossbow, or I find something like a legendary crossbow which could boost my char really great. Then I give it a try, change my skills and play along with that.

But you CAN do just that. You will always be within maybe 2-3 of your max skill points within minutes, no matter if endgame or midgame.
And in early game, you only have ~lvl 5 in a skill anyway.

There are build-defining skill nodes, some rather late into a certain skill. You have to work your way up there. But those are fringe cases. For the most part, a skill point gives you "A bit more damage" or "A bit more cast speed", or "10% Chance to Trigger another skill".

You don't need to have your maxlvl in all skills for them to be relevant. You can play just fine with a freshly respecced skill. When your character is level 30, you'll have... I don't know, 2-3 minimum skill points, and the very first map you clear will give you another 2-3 skill lvls, while your other skills might be somewhere around lvl 7-10 or something. The point is, skills aren't utterly useless with the minimum level, you can still get a good feel of them. It will be a bit weaker compared to having the skill the whole time, but it'll be there soon enough, it takes only a little amount of imagination to think about the nodes you'll get further on to compare the skills.
Respeccing skills really is no problem in any part of the game (I usually switch builds mostly in the early game, whenever I unlock a new good skill).

Much more important for your way of playing would be items. Daggers require +Melee Damage, something utterly worthless for Bow/Crossbow.
So not having the correct items is much more detrimental when switching builds like that than the skill points are. Curiously, nobody cares about that part of respecs, even though it takes much more time to find fitting items for the respecced build than it takes for your skills to catch up in level. Maybe because you can look for them beforehand, but it still takes only a fraction of the time to find even one good replacement item compared to releveling the skill.

What happens automatically and subconsciously by not having a completely free respec is you think about which node to get, if you really want to respec, and into what, or if you wait a bit, and which nodes you pick. With completely free respec that would be much more arbitrary and would feel meaningless.

[[R-K] WARLORD]

Origineel geplaatst door archmag:

Origineel geplaatst door Dailao:

You are defending having your time wasted.

You are playing a game. You are already wasting your time. You are not doing anything productive which can be considered not a waste. So this argument in context of playing games is useless.

This is why games get worse and worse, because people accept being served mechanisms that actively waste your time and/or money to get you to stay engaged longer, and there are always people defending it to their own detriment instead of calling it out.

If people are engaged longer due to this feature, it means it is working. I really don't see an issue here. Is the perfect game the one where you start a game and instantly win? It wastes zero time, so it's the best, right? Having to run from one place to another, having to farm same areas, having to kill enemies that have more than 1 hp, having to activate skills, having to backtrack, having to relevel after resetting your skills, all of this is a waste of time which isn't really necessary, but it creates an engaging experience. Sure you may not like some of these things, nothing wrong with not liking them, but it's developers who create the whole experience. Players know nothing about the things which are better for them.

I remember Diablo 2 didn't have respec at all, so you had to create another character if your build sucked at higher difficulties. Or play without spending skillpoints for almost the whole game as far as you can and then backup the character, invest skillpoints, try if it works and restore a character if it sucks. Was it a waste of time? Sure it was, but did I enjoy building different characters from scratch and seeing if they work at the end? I did and that feature increased the total time that I enjoyed the game at least 3x. When I play my goal isn't to complete the game, it's to enjoy the progress there. So having instant respec just means I lose on the total time I can enjoy playing the game.

So here is the final answer: instant respec doesn't exist to increase the amount of time you enjoy the game. Yes, it is just a waste of time, same as everything else in the game, but waste of time isn't a bad thing, it's the goal of the gaming. You need to run 3 areas to get back to where it was? Just treat it as a test of your new build, few skillpoints that are missing from it won't really change much, you can see if it works or not without them.

"Um actually you cant say a feature wastes time because youre playing a video game teehee :)"

Good argument dude. We should also have 15 minute loading times during fast travel in video games to mimic real travel because we want decisions to matter and youre already wasting time playing a video game, so this wont matter.

"If people are engaged longer due to this feature it means its working"

This isnt a subscription game. Try again.

[[R-K] WARLORD]

Origineel geplaatst door Elgareth:

Origineel geplaatst door Wintermist:

Are you making the point that you lost interest in Diablo 3+4 because it was too easy to respec?

No. I'm saying that free respecs don't guarantee a better game/more fun.

Origineel geplaatst door Dailao:

There are plenty of games offering instant respecs and redestribution of points. Don't act otherwise please. It worked fine for many years. This solution offers you nothing positive that adds to gameplay.

Which ones? Honest question here. ARPGs I know/have played are:
D1-4+Immortal(yuck), PoE, LE, Grim Dawn, Lost Ark, Borderlands (1, 2, pre-sequel, wonderlands), from the top of my head. None of them have free instant respecs apart from D3 I think. So I'm curious which ones I've missed, and do you recommend any of them? (At some point even LE will run out of content for me :D)

Every game you just listed provides instant respecs that cost so little the cost is irrelevant except diablo 1 and 2. Not a single game you just listed forces you to handicap your build and waste time farming monsters to get your skills back. Youre either arguing in bad faith or youve never played any game you listed.

[Hardkorowy]

The most stupid thing is mastery class system and you can't change it once you picked it. So if you want to play necro and warlock you need to lvl up from scratch your second acolyte...