+3 spell dmg > 91% elemental dmg?

[jamesc70]

Was comparing two staves with the only damage differences being - one had 3 more spell damage, and the other I'd lose that 3 spell damage but gain 91% elemental damage.

Checking the tooltips for fireball and disintegrate (beam thing), both showed higher dps for the item without the 91% elemental damage. I know flat damage is better than % in every arpg I've played, but this doesn't seem right.

Would flat 3 spell damage be better than 91% elemental damage, are the dps tooltips janky, or am I missing something?

[Ravenkid9266]

"We have no intention of giving you a perfect DPS calculation."
Developer stream 11.3.23
Time stamp: 27:11

Skills use added damage differently. Fire ball for example gets 125% added damage effectiveness, where as disintegrate gets 300% per second.

The developer mike also claims that the math involved with disintegrate is likely being effected by "some nodes are not possible to predict their DPS impact" So its plausible to think it could also effect other skills.

[Skaarphy]

I think the tooltips are janky. Before 1.0 I had 250k dps on my level 70 mage's disintegrate. Take a two zeros away from that and it'd be more accurate.
I don't have that mage anymore, so I don't know if they fixed that, but with my current sentinel I see weirdly fluctuating dps for rive and judgment while not changing a single thing.
I think it's just messed up.

[Astasia]

The DPS tooltips are janky and completely unreliable. Last I checked some mods that don't even contribute to damage can increase the tooltip DPS. I don't know if it's been fixed, but for example at one point increased chance to stun had a large impact on tooltip DPS.

Unless you have like 10000% increased damage from other sources, or something is converting your damage to non-elemental, the +91% elemental is probably better than the +3 flat.

You can always try hitting the training dummy for a bit to check. Hard to tell if cast/attack speed differences are involved, but it useful for knowing if you are getting higher numbers or not.

[Bull Buchanan]

jamesc70 původně napsal:

Was comparing two staves with the only damage differences being - one had 3 more spell damage, and the other I'd lose that 3 spell damage but gain 91% elemental damage.

Checking the tooltips for fireball and disintegrate (beam thing), both showed higher dps for the item without the 91% elemental damage. I know flat damage is better than % in every arpg I've played, but this doesn't seem right.

Would flat 3 spell damage be better than 91% elemental damage, are the dps tooltips janky, or am I missing something?

I've had very similar experiences with gear. I also have experiences like "When x happens you do Y more damage or you increase stat by Z amount" However, it's completely impossible to tell how much value you actually get out of that and at what stage of the algorithm it applies. They should have a full dps breakout page with all the possibilities and conditional effects.

[Nagumo]

Astasia původně napsal:

You can always try hitting the training dummy for a bit to check.

Where is the dummy located? Can't see it at the End of time, which should be the most useful place.

AM i blind???

[☁]

It can be better. For example If you had 500% ele damage, 200% spell damage and other increased damage sources from skills etc but very little base spell damage, adding flat spell damage will be better than say going from 900 increased % to 990%. Its good to balance them out along with cast speed, crit mult etc.

Example:

5 flat spell damage * 2 skill modifier effectiveness * 9.9 = 99 hit damage.

8 flat spell damage * 2 skill modifier effectiveness * 9 = 144 hit damage

I believe thats how it works.

[Becomeagoat]

Absolutely this. I feel like this thread is one of the most important now that we've seemingly cleared the connection issues.

The game is fun and the potential to really invest yourself in a build is there, but it kinda starts to diminish the time investment if you get wildly different results that what's expected.

[khazad_doom]

Nagumo původně napsal:

Astasia původně napsal:

You can always try hitting the training dummy for a bit to check.

Where is the dummy located? Can't see it at the End of time, which should be the most useful place.

AM i blind???

last time i checked (pre release), they were at champions gate, west of heoborea in divine era. you reach it from wengari fortres.

[Becomeagoat]

Also as a note: The search function inside stash tabs (and presumably elsewhere) returns for values in hidden descriptions (ala, if you search for "Damage over time", gear will be highlighted that doesn't have "Damage over time" listed as a stat on the gear, but does have it included in the hold-Alt+Ctrl tooltip description).

A good example is Armor. From the Armor tooltip description (Alt+Ctrl):
"Armor reduces the amount of damage you take from all hits, but not damage over time. More effective against physical damage."

If I search my stash for "Damage Over Time", any gear piece with Armor listed as a stat will remain highlighted.

[jamesc70]

Thanks for all the replies; I kind of figured the tooltip was janky. The 91% elemental damage staff definitely does more damage. I couldn't find a training dummy (only lvl 25) but switched them out and killed similar enemies to test it.

[Astasia]

☁ původně napsal:

It can be better. For example If you had 500% ele damage, 200% spell damage and other increased damage sources from skills etc but very little base spell damage, adding flat spell damage will be better than say going from 900 increased % to 990%. Its good to balance them out along with cast speed, crit mult etc.

Example:

5 flat spell damage * 2 skill modifier effectiveness * 9.9 = 99 hit damage.

8 flat spell damage * 2 skill modifier effectiveness * 9 = 144 hit damage

I believe thats how it works.

Yes, but you also have to factor in other sources of base damage, like from the skill itself, and from the staff. They aren't going from 0 flat damage to 3 in their example, it's probably closer to like from 50 to 53. AFAIK fireball is 25 base damage with a 125% modifier, a level 23 staff is like +20 spell damage so we are talking ~50 base damage. There is a point where +3 flat damage on top of 50 damage would be better than 91% increased damage, but it's at around 2000% increased damage. 50*21=1050 vs 53*20=1060. I don't think they have 2000% increased damage at level 25.

[Siameasy]

Playing as a minion zoo Necro and the toolltips are useless as they just say "-" for dps lol.

[Ben]

They should remove that DPS tooltip tbh.
It's non functional.
A friend of mine who clearly deals more damage than me has 3,5k on his most used skill while I have 10k on mine.
Everytime I add +x% elemental damage via my marksman passive tree, I lose 100 points of DPS on my Cinder Strike skill... etc. etc.