Gear Progression After lvl 100 Explained

[GOD OF WAR SANCHEZ]

It is incredibly slow. You will spend much less time leveling to level 100, than farming a single piece of end game gear, not even the BiS, but just decent end game piece.

Does the game really expect players to spend 1000-3000 hours grinding for end game gear? Will there be seasons or anything that makes characters worthless in the long run?

Here is a practical example of Omni drop, omni is not even a best amulet ingame, it is just basic in end game.

1. Only drops from oroboros, so about 3-10 times as rare as regular bosses.
2. Drop rate is about 10%, kill 10 oroboros, omni drops once.
3. Omni has high roll variety, a chance of dropping omni with semi decent stats rolls on it, is about 20%, one out of five will be alright, if you want a good one it is one out of 15-20.
4. Omni drops with LP0, end game is all about slamming legendaries together. Chance to drop LP1 is less than 10%.
5. To exalt slam the right stat and not ruin amulet completely, the chance is roughly 25%

1/5 regular boss drop x 1/10 drop rate x 1/10 decent stats x 1/10 lp1 x 1/4 proper stat exalt slam

1/20.000 boss fights or 1/4000 oroboros fights on high corruption, now if we take that you farm high corruption echoes with a rate of 30-60 minutes per monolith run. you will spend anywhere from 2000 hours to 4000 hours to get yourself an amulet piece. Not the best one again.

Only one amulet only for one build. About the same thing happens with all other gear slots.

[Scipo0419]

Messaggio originale di Ayk-:

Warlock, falconer and runemaster can clear endgame with just yellow items, so there really is no point to chase impossible drop rate BiS items.

"Smite Paladin, Lightning Javazon, and Meteor Sorc can solo ubers without Runewords, so there is really no point to chase impossible drop rate BiS items."

Again, everyone acts like BiS is mandatory for every other ARPG, and it's really, really not. Better gear let's you progress further in the endless content, but you can do everything in every arpg at least once with very basic gear. Stop acting like LE is bad because of this or you'll have to call D2, D3, PoE, GD, TQ, Torchlight, etc all bad for the same reason.

[Ayk-]

Messaggio originale di Scipo0419:

Messaggio originale di Ayk-:

Warlock, falconer and runemaster can clear endgame with just yellow items, so there really is no point to chase impossible drop rate BiS items.

"Smite Paladin, Lightning Javazon, and Meteor Sorc can solo ubers without Runewords, so there is really no point to chase impossible drop rate BiS items."

Again, everyone acts like BiS is mandatory for every other ARPG, and it's really, really not. Better gear let's you progress further in the endless content, but you can do everything in every arpg at least once with very basic gear. Stop acting like LE is bad because of this or you'll have to call D2, D3, PoE, GD, TQ, Torchlight, etc all bad for the same reason.

While I agree in spirit, there is something you are neglecting. And I am not acting like LE is bad if you can get so easily offended by the truth, it is a "you" issue, sorry to say.

In all the games other than D3(i havent played it), you can notice your gear upgrades.
Sadly that is not the case with LE, and that is the fundamental issue.

There is no point in chasing upgrades, BiS or not, when I can use two skills to generate 20k ward.

There is no point in chasing upgrades if it doesn't enable me a milestone to pass in endgame, or helping me defeating an endgame boss I could not before.

Gear upgrades is noticeable in all those games you mentioned. There is a huge difference with chars that have optimal items in D2 and those who do not.

PoE pinnacle bosses will be quite tough for people with random basic gear, I mean sure you can do it if you are skilled player and can execute boss mechanics flawlessly, but goodluck spending a lot of your time even if you don't die.

When the core gameplay is to chase loot in endgame(there really is not anything else to do in LE), but the same loot not impacting your power level significantly and hiding behind impossible drop rates, it will leave little incentive for many people to play further.

If you are enjoying LE, that is totally fine, I occasionally enjoy it too due to its simpilicity and ease, but defending poor gear progression and comparing with D2 is illogical.

[Scipo0419]

@Rodhull, @Ayk:
I am going to define BiS for you, because I genuinely don't think that means what you think it means.

BiS or "Best in Slot" means that an item is the best possible item for your build and will NEVER* be replaced by something else (*unless new items are released).

The only way for an item to be best in slot is for it to have the exact affixes/properties you need, at the maximum possible value for those affixes/properties. This is an astronomically low number in any arpg, not just Last Epoch. BiS is common in MMORPGs because items have static properties, every version of that item will be exactly the same and you can calculate what will be the most optimal piece of gear for every slot relatively quickly. For the looter genre, a genre designed around the random nature of drops, you can have a wide array of properties on the same item, with those properties having widely varying values inside the property itself, and the odds of finding two pieces of the same item (Wooden Shield for example) is next to impossible.

A wooden Shield has 8 possible prefixes that it can select 2 of, each affix has 7 possible tiers. As well as 18 suffixes, of which it can select 2 more, each with 7 possible tiers.

That's a 1/8 chance for the first prefix to be the same and a 1/7 chance for it to be the same tier for a 1/56 chance for the first prefix to match. The second prefix is a 1/7 chance to match and a 1/7 chance to be the same tier for a 1/49 chance for the second affix, that's a 1/2744 chance for just the prefixes to match. Suffixes are (1/18 * 1/7) * (1/17 * 1/7) for a 1/14944 chance for the suffixes to match. And this is ignoring the chance of a wooden shield itself dropping.

All in all, the chance of finding the exact same wooden shield is 1 in 41,143,536. Now do that math for your head piece, chest piece, amulet, both rings, gloves, belt, boots, weapon, relic, and pants.

This is just for the theoretical perfect wooden shield. Bringing in Legendary potential and stuff makes it worseThe odds of finding your ACTUAL BiS is as Mike said, theoretically impossible. Guess what though? That math isn't just for Last Epoch, you can do the same ♥♥♥♥ in PoE. Strength Shields have 7 possible prefixes with 43 possible tiers for those prefixes, for a 1 in 301 chance for a specific prefix, and 19 possible suffixes with a total of 103 possible tiers for those suffixes for a 1 in 1957 chance for a specific suffix.

Assuming just 1 prefix and 1 suffix, that's a 1 in 589,057 chance. Add in one more of each and it's 281,765,812,924 possible combinations. Well, technically less than that as each prefix/suffix have varying possible tiers, and assuming you can't have two of the same affix, then it would vary wildly between what affixes you already have. But this is also still only considering Standard affixes, not Shaper, Elder, Crusader, and Redeemer affixes, which would drastically change the outcome.

So, is gearing in PoE trash for its over 1 in 200 billion chance for a perfect BiS shield?

Edit: rephrased my final sentence to "gearing in" since I read Ayks last post after posting and his point was about gearing being bad in LE, not that LE was bad.

[Ayk-]

Messaggio originale di Scipo0419:

.
*Snip*

That 1 in 200 billion chance is achieved by crafters in PoE. Even if its %2 of playerbase, somebody manages to make that perfect item and others go mirror it on trade leagues. You can look it up "poe mirror shops" and you will even find websites of people promoting their perfect items to be copied, given you have the mirror + fee at the ready.
Now, please show me anyone this cycle who has achieved the following:

*End game unique, not those level 0 items that make your exalted item worse.
*LP4 with two high value T7 affixes on it. Other mods are high value T5s.

If even nolifers and botters can't achieve BiS in a game, then there is something fundamentally wrong.

[Ravenkid9266]

Messaggio originale di Ayk-:

If even nolifers and botters can't achieve BiS in a game, then there is something fundamentally wrong.

If you navigate to the lizardirl video with the developer mike they actually touched on this subject. mike admits that these BiS items are entirely theoretical by design. A point mike would go on to echo when confronted with the theory crafted drop rates by maxroll over on reddit. Yes maxroll was off by several digits, but mike was still quite sad at how close they got. mike would also state the "intent" is for people to farm base items and not LP items.

If you pop over to the official forum and dig around you can find posts where mike struggles with the basic concept of what a BiS item even is. The TLDR is a BiS item and a perfectly rolled BiS item are two different things, and even a poorly rolled item is considered BiS in parlance.

[RodHull]

Messaggio originale di Scipo0419:

You keep saying "but you don't neeeeeeeeeeed it!", and that's true for literally every single arpg ever made.

Yes you don't get how this one is different. I understand its not obvious at first. You'll get there in time don't worry. I mean the developers have admitted that gear not really mattering much is a major issue (didn't fix it mind but still) so you can disagree with me all you like. This game is unique in this genre in that it hands you most of your power in skill trees and gear is an afterthought.

Messaggio originale di Ayk-:

If you are enjoying LE, that is totally fine, I occasionally enjoy it too due to its simpilicity and ease, but defending poor gear progression and comparing with D2 is illogical.

THIS

Messaggio originale di Ravenkid9266:

If you navigate to the lizardirl video with the developer mike they actually touched on this subject. mike admits that these BiS items are entirely theoretical by design. A point mike would go on to echo when confronted with the theory crafted drop rates by maxroll over on reddit. Yes maxroll was off by several digits, but mike was still quite sad at how close they got. mike would also state the "intent" is for people to farm base items and not LP items.

If you pop over to the official forum and dig around you can find posts where mike struggles with the basic concept of what a BiS item even is. The TLDR is a BiS item and a perfectly rolled BiS item are two different things, and even a poorly rolled item is considered BiS in parlance.

AND THIS

[Ice-Nine]

Messaggio originale di Scipo0419:

The selling point is to customize your gear to fit your needs with the Forge.

You've clearly not played this game.

[Ice-Nine]

Messaggio originale di Scipo0419:

@Rodhull, @Ayk:
I am going to define BiS for you, because I genuinely don't think that means what you think it means.

BiS or "Best in Slot" means that an item is the best possible item for your build and will NEVER* be replaced by something else (*unless new items are released).

The only way for an item to be best in slot is for it to have the exact affixes/properties you need, at the maximum possible value for those affixes/properties. This is an astronomically low number in any arpg, not just Last Epoch. BiS is common in MMORPGs because items have static properties, every version of that item will be exactly the same and you can calculate what will be the most optimal piece of gear for every slot relatively quickly. For the looter genre, a genre designed around the random nature of drops, you can have a wide array of properties on the same item, with those properties having widely varying values inside the property itself, and the odds of finding two pieces of the same item (Wooden Shield for example) is next to impossible.

A wooden Shield has 8 possible prefixes that it can select 2 of, each affix has 7 possible tiers. As well as 18 suffixes, of which it can select 2 more, each with 7 possible tiers.

That's a 1/8 chance for the first prefix to be the same and a 1/7 chance for it to be the same tier for a 1/56 chance for the first prefix to match. The second prefix is a 1/7 chance to match and a 1/7 chance to be the same tier for a 1/49 chance for the second affix, that's a 1/2744 chance for just the prefixes to match. Suffixes are (1/18 * 1/7) * (1/17 * 1/7) for a 1/14944 chance for the suffixes to match. And this is ignoring the chance of a wooden shield itself dropping.

All in all, the chance of finding the exact same wooden shield is 1 in 41,143,536. Now do that math for your head piece, chest piece, amulet, both rings, gloves, belt, boots, weapon, relic, and pants.

This is just for the theoretical perfect wooden shield. Bringing in Legendary potential and stuff makes it worseThe odds of finding your ACTUAL BiS is as Mike said, theoretically impossible. Guess what though? That math isn't just for Last Epoch, you can do the same ♥♥♥♥ in PoE. Strength Shields have 7 possible prefixes with 43 possible tiers for those prefixes, for a 1 in 301 chance for a specific prefix, and 19 possible suffixes with a total of 103 possible tiers for those suffixes for a 1 in 1957 chance for a specific suffix.

Assuming just 1 prefix and 1 suffix, that's a 1 in 589,057 chance. Add in one more of each and it's 281,765,812,924 possible combinations. Well, technically less than that as each prefix/suffix have varying possible tiers, and assuming you can't have two of the same affix, then it would vary wildly between what affixes you already have. But this is also still only considering Standard affixes, not Shaper, Elder, Crusader, and Redeemer affixes, which would drastically change the outcome.

So, is gearing in PoE trash for its over 1 in 200 billion chance for a perfect BiS shield?

Edit: rephrased my final sentence to "gearing in" since I read Ayks last post after posting and his point was about gearing being bad in LE, not that LE was bad.

Yeah except PoE has crafting systems that can significantly increase your odds of achieving a BiS item.

LE has a crafting system, but you have to drop 2 BiS items for each slot before you even use it. You can't use it to increase your odds of getting a BiS item.