Why only four skills?

[Sylxeria]

I just started playing this (And was confused as to why it requires an external account, but that's beside the point) and was having some fun. Took a little while to get used to the fact moving and attacking are separate keys in this but I think I got it now.

The thing I found, a little questionable, was how there's a hard limit(?) of four skills you can have equipped at one time, and unlike say Titan Quest you can't just manually cast something. So I picked the class that let you summon monsters and thought about going in as a hybrid warrior-summoner, but then I learn you have to have those skills assigned to your bar to actually summon them. Unbinding them unsummons your monster.


I already have to decide between the wolf/sabertooth/thorn-totem and being able to use a healing spell and/or use the jump-slam attack - I haven't even gotten to the other skills or the raptor summon, and with only four slots to decide what I want to use...


This late into development I figure it's already "set in stone" and no amount of talk will change that, but I thought I'd ask what the reasoning for this limit was in place? I know I often only use 3 ~ 5 skills when playing Titan Quest, Grim Dawn, and Diablo 2 but when working with summons and certain buffs I'll often cast those manually and leave the rest to my most-used bar (Enchants that last until dispelled for example, I'll cast manually since they won't ever expire unless I take them off myself or die, so I don't need to have them on my 1-2-3-4 section of my bar)

[Bikanel desert]

bad design decision to have only have 4 skills.....

[Cat_Thulhu]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Bikanel desert:

bad design decision to have only have 4 skills.....

It's actually 5, including right click.

And I actually like it. Forces your to make decisions as to which skills to use.

I also personally dislike builds that require more than a half dozen should to function. Want to relax when I okay games, not micro manage stuff on a 5 second cool down.

[Bikanel desert]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Cat_Thulhu:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Bikanel desert:

bad design decision to have only have 4 skills.....

It's actually 5, including right click.

And I actually like it. Forces your to make decisions as to which skills to use.

I also personally dislike builds that require more than a half dozen should to function. Want to relax when I okay games, not micro manage stuff on a 5 second cool down.

but i read you lose everything if you respec...... not good.... i like to change nd experiment with skills

[ling.speed]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Bikanel desert:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Cat_Thulhu:

It's actually 5, including right click.

And I actually like it. Forces your to make decisions as to which skills to use.

I also personally dislike builds that require more than a half dozen should to function. Want to relax when I okay games, not micro manage stuff on a 5 second cool down.

but i read you lose everything if you respec...... not good.... i like to change nd experiment with skills

You read wrong. You only loose points to a minimum level thats based on
character level making it relatively easy/natural in testing out skills.

Seriously why complain before even trying out the system. Skills are complex enough it takes quite a bit of time to get a feel for one configuration, just about the time to level it up. The experiance system for skills is not to increase grind but to stop newbs hurting themselves.

[Mud'N]

I came to revive this topic.

I understand generally people want things simpler, PoE and the like focus around overspecialising in fewer skills. Imho this is where later generation WoW failed it's people. Same can be said about Diablo 3.

So what if 60%+ of your target audience are idi- err simple. The younger crowd might be console kids who cannot fathom more that 4 buttons. However with modern day mouse buttons, is being able to mount all skills on a mouse (and have buttons to spare) really the depth one wants to go for? Esp in a spell RPG.[i/]

At present the game needs a lot of polish. It still feels pretty dead and dull. But having such a hard skill limit of 5 skills, just escalates this feeling. Just being able to specialise in 5 is fine, as many have good synergy potential. Default button layout is fine, those of us who want more can remap things to our liking. But please allow us more bars to fill up.

If one (hopefully the devs) wants to compete for a playerbase one has to give the audience something to stay over. I love that each class branches into three (Despite me getting this game for (getting sold on) the Falconeer which is still to be released) it has good and complex depth potential. This design decision however is more in tune with allowing for more complex (more skill) builds. It should be kinda sad to the devs too, to work out so many skills, have them unlocked, only for them just to fade away off everyone's roster.

but for me, for now, the thing which most prevents me from living out in this game world is how many skills I have to sacrifice. I believe balance should be of lesser concern at present. Right now those of us who buy into the game's development want to see the promise it holds

[ex_Kenny]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από wespe___o=/:*:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Takkik:

the problem it's the very limited number of specialization slots. It's making leveling frustrating, in particular when you begin. You don't have any room to experiment. You unlock lot of new skills (and more are coming i think?) but the system punish you to try the new skills, that really discourage you to use new skills and make the gameplay more boring...

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Bikanel desert:

bad design decision to have only have 4 skills.....

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Mud'N:

...At present the game needs a lot of polish. It still feels pretty dead and dull. But having such a hard skill limit of 5 skills, just escalates this feeling...

Exactly. And having less options than even PoE will drive many interested players off..

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Feathercoat:

Some times you just got to accept that you are not the target audience for a game.

This last quote is probably THE one quote nobody of you understand.. If you dont like the game, dont play it, its as easy as this. IF you are REALLY interested in the game, you would give it a go. But i think you are all here to just ♥♥♥♥♥ around over things you dont like till it ends up like ALL the other ARPG game skill systems...

[Mud'N]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ex_Kenny:

...

Oh, a bottom. *****ing over people giving input over an unfinished game. If you just want to sit quietly, then do so. But you comment is quite pointless growling in blind defence to a malleable system.

also that you did not even read my comment. well trolled

[RodHull]

People often get hung up on the 5 skill limit, which imo is the wrong issue to focus on.

Essentially if the skills were awesome and fun to use having a limit of 5 would be fine. I mean in reality nobody much uses more than 4 or 5 skills in games like POE or GD anyway. The issue is a many of the skills in LE are just not very impactful or fun to use and this is made worse by passives and defensive skills taking up spaces.

Example: with the Paladin:

You will likely have 1 defensive skill (boring but needed) 1 passive skill (boring but needed) 1 movement skill (mostly boring but very needed) and then this leaves you with a whopping 2 spaces one of which will end up being a fairly dull standard attack replacer and then 1 skill your build focuses on. Its just a bit well, boring.

Now granted this might all be alleviated if they suddenly add a ton of new skills that are fun but even then you are wasting 3 slots of your 5 on fairly dull choices. IMO if they wanted to reinvent this wheel they should have limited you to 4 defensive skills or passives and 4 attacking skills. OR have more passives that take up the defensive skills places and have them not take up spaces on your bar (like POE does it)

[ex_Kenny]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από RodHull:

People often get hung up on the 5 skill limit, which imo is the wrong issue to focus on.

Essentially if the skills were awesome and fun to use having a limit of 5 would be fine. I mean in reality nobody much uses more than 4 or 5 skills in games like POE or GD anyway. The issue is a many of the skills in LE are just not very impactful or fun to use and this is made worse by passives and defensive skills taking up spaces.

Example: with the Paladin:

You will likely have 1 defensive skill (boring but needed) 1 passive skill (boring but needed) 1 movement skill (mostly boring but very needed) and then this leaves you with a whopping 2 spaces one of which will end up being a fairly dull standard attack replacer and then 1 skill your build focuses on. Its just a bit well, boring.

Somewhat true, but not really.. There are ALOT of builds that will never need an attack replacer or defensive abilities..

[ex_Kenny]

Just that i state this clear, dont wanna ♥♥♥♥♥ about anyone BUT i wanna explain a thing to everything, those actually didnt play the game, thinking 5 skills is a bit to low...

I personally think its completly fine since certain skills and items can procc YOUR skills, even if they arent on the skillbar, meaning, you actually can have more skills that you can use

Stating OP that he cant use summons that arent on the skillbar, you can, i do it with my nec, they just have to come through a procc from a certain other skill.

[Drake]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ex_Kenny:

Just that i state this clear, dont wanna ♥♥♥♥♥ about anyone BUT i wanna explain a thing to everything, those actually didnt play the game, thinking 5 skills is a bit to low...

I personally think its completly fine since certain skills and items can procc YOUR skills, even if they arent on the skillbar, meaning, you actually can have more skills that you can use

Stating OP that he cant use summons that arent on the skillbar, you can, i do it with my nec, they just have to come through a procc from a certain other skill.

Yes the game has depth. It was the same with guild wars 1, some people complained about the 8 skills limitation. But the fact that it allowed for complex party builds and gave roles to players just made up for it.

It's the same in w40K inquisitor where you only have 10 skills (6 + 4 on the weapon switch) and all of them are tied to your equipment (the skills you get depend on the weapons and armours you've equipped).

Limitations allow for good theorycrafting. Look at path of exile, you have access to undreds of skill gems but the effective slots you can put them on is very small (if you do 1 gem + full support on each equipment slot, you only have 6 slots, not counting the jewelry, and adding more skills means removing support gems).

[Feral Silver]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από wespe___o=/:*:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από RodHull:

...Essentially if the skills were awesome and fun to use having a limit of 5 would be fine. I mean in reality nobody much uses more than 4 or 5 skills in games like POE or GD anyway. The issue is a many of the skills in LE are just not very impactful or fun to use and this is made worse by passives and defensive skills taking up spaces.
...
Now granted this might all be alleviated if they suddenly add a ton of new skills that are fun but even then you are wasting 3 slots of your 5 on fairly dull choices. IMO if they wanted to reinvent this wheel they should have limited you to 4 defensive skills or passives and 4 attacking skills. OR have more passives that take up the defensive skills places and have them not take up spaces on your bar (like POE does it)

This. Exactly the prob. No player would complain, if those 5 Skills were dope and we had additional Mobility/Buff-Slots as in PoE, GrimDawn, W40K Martyr, etc..



@Topic:
I say: LastEpoch needs 2 more Slots for Passives/Stances ("exclusive" to prevent misuse).
Otherwise Stances should be class-specific and always activated (= 1 button saved :D:) and Mobility Skills have to get tailored into Class-progression.

>>> Whatever is done.. 5 Skill-Limit means those have to be really worth it :brawler:

Stances are being removed next patch, and will be relegated to trigger passive nodes instead.

For everyone confused about how the skill system works its actually simpler than you think.
You get whats called a "Minimum Skill Level". We'll call it the "Stable" skill level. Every Level above this "Stable" level is "Unstable". For example, my fireball is level 10, but its minimum skill level is 5. If I respec six points in it, i get 1 point back. The other five are lost and have to be releveled. You'd think this is devastating, but a skill gets an experience boost after it is respecced and levels fairly quickly.
If i want to switch specializations from Fireball to Lightning Blast, i will start at my minimum skill level (in this case, its level 5) so i start off with 5 free points to put into lightning blast, along with the skill exp boost to quickly get it back up to snuff.

The entire reason for this system is to prevent hotswapping skills (or macros that hotswap skills) for bosses or other content.

[Drake]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από wespe___o=/:*:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από RodHull:

...Essentially if the skills were awesome and fun to use having a limit of 5 would be fine. I mean in reality nobody much uses more than 4 or 5 skills in games like POE or GD anyway. The issue is a many of the skills in LE are just not very impactful or fun to use and this is made worse by passives and defensive skills taking up spaces.
...
Now granted this might all be alleviated if they suddenly add a ton of new skills that are fun but even then you are wasting 3 slots of your 5 on fairly dull choices. IMO if they wanted to reinvent this wheel they should have limited you to 4 defensive skills or passives and 4 attacking skills. OR have more passives that take up the defensive skills places and have them not take up spaces on your bar (like POE does it)

This. Exactly the prob. No player would complain, if those 5 Skills were dope and we had additional Mobility/Buff-Slots as in PoE, GrimDawn, W40K Martyr, etc..

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Drake:

Yes the game has depth. It was the same with guild wars 1, some people complained about the 8 skills limitation. But the fact that it allowed for complex party builds and gave roles to players just made up for it.

It's the same in w40K inquisitor where you only have 10 skills (6 + 4 on the weapon switch) and all of them are tied to your equipment (the skills you get depend on the weapons and armours you've equipped).

Limitations allow for good theorycrafting. Look at path of exile, you have access to undreds of skill gems but the effective slots you can put them on is very small (if you do 1 gem + full support on each equipment slot, you only have 6 slots, not counting the jewelry, and adding more skills means removing support gems).

Did you even play PoE? Seems not, otherwise you would know about Support Gems.. your comment is really dishonest.. especially since you keep quiet about the fact that buffs can be placed on second Skillbar (which brings it on par with GrimDawn)
Same for W40K (Mouse + at least 7 buttons), how can you compare that or GrimDawn (4-10 active buttons + permanent Buffs in second skillbar) with the limit here in LastEpoch ??
-> All three games have 10 or more Skillslots :krlvlup:

@Topic:
I say: LastEpoch needs 2 more Slots for Passives/Stances ("exclusive" to prevent misuse).
Otherwise Stances should be class-specific and always activated (= 1 button saved :D:) and Mobility Skills have to get tailored into Class-progression.

>>> Whatever is done.. 5 Skill-Limit means those have to be really worth it :brawler:

I have about 3500 on poe, playing since closed beta, yeah I know the game. Support gems are not skill gems, if you were to make an analogy with LE, those would be the skill tree (of the skills, not the class). I'm comparing both games here. And yeah if you assume that you are using 1 skill per equipment slot and only support gems in there, without counting jewelry (because that's optional) and skills provided by uniques (again optional), if you do the maths you get six : helm, weapon 1, weapon 2, body, gloves and boots. The base is 6.
Now you can add more skills by trading supports for more skill gems, or trading stats for more skills on other items. But that is the same as trigger passives and items in last epoch, so I'm factoring them out to have a common ground.

A base of 6 is not a lot more than 5, and 7 in W40K isn't a lot more than 5 either.
We are not talking about the load of skills you can get in titan quest or grim dawn.

Some games like MOBA have even less and they're fine.

Now where I do agree is that some skills need to get reworked to be valid options.

But lets be real, the best builds in an h&s are mono skill builds. Unless you play summoner you want the least number of skills possible to maximize the damage to those skills. The time you're not clicking other skills is the time you can save to position yourself and keep the dps of you main skill.

[Psychic Kitty]

They want to dumb it down for a phone game and consoles is all.

Other companies have done this same thing, and cant seam to keep their player base.

As certain developers and companies do not understand that its neat to have 1000s of abilities and skills, but its really lame and over the top stupid to never be able to use them, thus players answer with their feet and leave.

Elderscrolls online, fallout 76, dc heroes online
Those games as just a few other examples that do this sort of thing and you can see how they are floundering.

[RodHull]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Drake:

Now you can add more skills by trading supports for more skill gems, or trading stats for more skills on other items. But that is the same as trigger passives and items in last epoch, so I'm factoring them out to have a common ground.

No its not remotely the same.

I had a necro in LE who had a skill which triggered another skill great, so I got a free skill. Except it was useless at high levels because unless you ALSO spec into that free skill with one of your 5 slots then it remains an unleveled base skill OR functionally useless, at best a nice bonus but nothing more. It doesn't come close to being a real skill.

Where as in POE if you have played that long you know you want 1 x 6 slot main skill. 1 or 2 x 4 slot support skills and then you will have a bunch of passive, conditional self cast skills or combinations there of depending on your build. The other skills beyond your main 2 or 3 don't ever need more than 1 or 2 support gems AT most if any at all. Where as LE the skills are seemingly designed to be of little use UNLESS they are fully levelled and skilled up.

That is a MAJOR difference. It restricts builds where as POE allows you to mix / match so many approaches and thats not even counting the numerous powerful game changing major nodes that function almost like passives themselves. I mean many of the base defense and passive skills in POE you'd struggle to find more than 1 or 2 support gems you'd even want to use on them. So to suggest you need every skill fully supported with a suite of full support gems is dishonest or wrong, or both.

Now thats not to say LE Is beyond hope we shall see what the new changes to passives does but sadly the game has the idea of levelling skills baked into it and I think it is extremely limiting.