Bosses need to be tuned down.

[ShuFlngPu]

I can take 20-50 hits of any/all minions, elites ect.
Soon as I come across a boss with a cutscene to fight it, I get 1shot irregardless of typing.
...
The suggestion was make a totally new character with a new build.
K... Ill move on to other games I guess. Thats both sucky and irrational. Why do bosses get to do 20x damage over elites? Most 1shot abilities take up nearly the whole combat platform so its hard if not impossible to dodge and apparently its just OK to have a bunch of requirements; Not play the build I want to play to progress?
Id genuinely rather play D2. 1shot mechanics suck.

[DarthMalak]

Interesting discussions.. And as a cusual player all I know that I'm hitting brick walls with that end echo boss with my 2 lvl 70's.. Necro and Runemaster mage... I'm fast losing interesting in the continous wiping even though my resists are as best as I can get them with the rather mediocre quality of loot I've been getting or been able to craft together.

Talking about orobyss btw.. Not sure what I'm doing wrong.. Can't kill that flesh spawn fast enough it seems while dying. And even dodging the attacks will wack me... killed him before at some time.. But now 30 wipes encounting.

[Metadigital]

The bosses in this game are not tuned to the rest of the game and it just feels unbalanced and bad.

I dunno, I get that some people like this style of gameplay, but it's jarring when the rest of the game plays like Diablo.

[Koala 4peace]

Oprindeligt skrevet af DarthMalak:

Interesting discussions.. And as a cusual player all I know that I'm hitting brick walls with that end echo boss with my 2 lvl 70's.. Necro and Runemaster mage... I'm fast losing interesting in the continous wiping even though my resists are as best as I can get them with the rather mediocre quality of loot I've been getting or been able to craft together.

Talking about orobyss btw.. Not sure what I'm doing wrong.. Can't kill that flesh spawn fast enough it seems while dying. And even dodging the attacks will wack me... killed him before at some time.. But now 30 wipes encounting.

Yeah, for others this is a kick to the jaw. Not something easy to swallow. I guess asking you to grit your teeth and hold on would be unfair. Wonder if there is a build that allows you to just chew on the enemies.

In all seriousness, lvl 70 is a brick wall by itself, because that's where the exp to level up start to go over the top.

[Котоёж]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Ravenkid9266:

Oprindeligt skrevet af huez:

Wait until you find out that getting more DPS results in you dealing less damage to bosses, thanks to their dynamic damage resistance.


how does it work?

How boss DR works: Bosses start with 3x HP. When the boss reaches 99% HP DR will start to fall off. The more damage the boss takes the more HP it will have. for example, increasing your character’s damage by 80% causes them to kill bosses 50% more quickly.

Because creating a series of stats for a boss that a player cannot kill is difficult to do EHG just decided to slap a roundabout way of drawing out the boss fights. This does not apply to high end builds who can sub 5 seconds T4 Jurla (strongest current boss) and only serves to draw out fights for builds that have a more "middle of the road" damage output normalizing it with builds that did not build for damage. Meaning if you use your character resources on some damage you get normalized with builds that built for defenses/utility, and the real benefit only comes if you build for extreme damage and overcome this dynamic DR.

Not to be confused with the normal Damage Reduction that can be seen here:
https://lastepoch.tunklab.com/mobdr

Edit: Originally this system was far more punishing, and why all the builds pre 0.7.9C were mostly tank builds. in 0.7.9C EHG adjusted this system, but the adjustment was mostly shifting the math so the numbers stayed the same on screen where as the boss health bar stayed the same. This also has overflow due to leech mechanics.

Edit2: Example you are dealing DPS, then you weave in some burst damage, now you go back to dealing the same DPS. That portion of DPS you are dealing after the burst, it is now lower in effectiveness then the portion before the burst thanks to dynamic DR, even though it is the exact same DPS.

Cringe, this system dishonest.

[RodHull]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Ravenkid9266:

Lets be honest, how long have you played LE? now how long until you were told about dynamic DR? Do you think that is accidental? Or did you at one point think, I just need better gear? That manipulation is by design, balance is hard, that is why its so difficult to find in any game. It is much easier to keep the player chasing the carrot on a möbius strip
keeping engagement high.

Did you know the only two metrics to predict the sales of a micro-transaction business model are player count and player engagement. What a strange coincidence.

I know I've mentioned it before, but this line of thinking makes much more sense once you understand the background of the CEO. He is a marketing bro who has a background in "corporate digital marketing and conversion rate optimization focusing on data driven user experience testing, search engine optimization, and sales funnel optimization."

Once you know that then look back at what you just spelled out its like an 'Ahh I understand why the game does these things now, I get now why it goes to such lengths to hide its shallow mechanics'

Like "sales funnel optimization" (sorry did a bit of sick in my own mouth typing that) has no place in a video games design imo, but for sure its a prime of example of it, keep people in game as long as possible chasing impossible items, smashing their heads against boss brick walls that dynamicaly depower them without being clear that this happens, cause the longer you keep people in the 'sales funnel' the more likely they are to reach the bottom of the funnel and buy something.

[Ravenkid9266]

Oprindeligt skrevet af RodHull:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Ravenkid9266:

Lets be honest, how long have you played LE? now how long until you were told about dynamic DR? Do you think that is accidental? Or did you at one point think, I just need better gear? That manipulation is by design, balance is hard, that is why its so difficult to find in any game. It is much easier to keep the player chasing the carrot on a möbius strip
keeping engagement high.

Did you know the only two metrics to predict the sales of a micro-transaction business model are player count and player engagement. What a strange coincidence.

I know I've mentioned it before, but this line of thinking makes much more sense once you understand the background of the CEO. He is a marketing bro who has a background in "corporate digital marketing and conversion rate optimization focusing on data driven user experience testing, search engine optimization, and sales funnel optimization."

Once you know that then look back at what you just spelled out its like an 'Ahh I understand why the game does these things now, I get now why it goes to such lengths to hide its shallow mechanics'

Like "sales funnel optimization" (sorry did a bit of sick in my own mouth typing that) has no place in a video games design imo, but for sure its a prime of example of it, keep people in game as long as possible chasing impossible items, smashing their heads against boss brick walls that dynamicaly depower them without being clear that this happens, cause the longer you keep people in the 'sales funnel' the more likely they are to reach the bottom of the funnel and buy something.

Andrew Schultz the comedian has a bit about models and why he hates them, that comes to mind.

See I do not mind a game designed to keep me engaged with the goal of tempting me into after market sales. The motive has no value to me, and that motive encourages the developer to make an engaging entertaining product. The problem is when you reach a point in the game where you ask yourself "why am I doing this?" once you ask that question chances are very good your time in the game is over.

I want a game like LE to try and hold my attention longer. I however want it to be done as part of a fair exchange. I give you my engagement, you get increased odds I buy after market sales. The problem is when it is not done fairly, when it is done in an attempt to artificially inflate engagement as opposed to real engagement.

To be fair real engagement is far more difficult then just say cutting your character progression by hidden under the hood systems designed and admitted to have the goal of drawing out the fight, or inflating the boss fights with one shots.

[RodHull]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Ravenkid9266:

To be fair real engagement is far more difficult then just say cutting your character progression by hidden under the hood systems designed and admitted to have the goal of drawing out the fight, or inflating the boss fights with one shots.

Well indeed which is why the number of players engaging with LE daily is still so low. Cause mostly people either realise the con job, or just get a sense that it feels 'off'

I can include myself in that, long before I realised the extent of the problem I knew the game was just not clicking, it did all the right things, it looked right, it had the right gameplay loop but it just didn't land. It wasn't till I started digging I realised how empty it is underneath.

And you see thats what makes me stick around, I do feel somewhere under all this is still a good game or at least a good concept for a game, but yeah I won't be buying $20 portal skins any time soon that's for sure no matter how much promise the game once had.

[Plagueslav]

git gud

[Herr Gutentauben]

Oprindeligt skrevet af RodHull:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Ravenkid9266:

To be fair real engagement is far more difficult then just say cutting your character progression by hidden under the hood systems designed and admitted to have the goal of drawing out the fight, or inflating the boss fights with one shots.

Well indeed which is why the number of players engaging with LE daily is still so low. Cause mostly people either realise the con job, or just get a sense that it feels 'off'

I can include myself in that, long before I realised the extent of the problem I knew the game was just not clicking, it did all the right things, it looked right, it had the right gameplay loop but it just didn't land. It wasn't till I started digging I realised how empty it is underneath.

And you see thats what makes me stick around, I do feel somewhere under all this is still a good game or at least a good concept for a game, but yeah I won't be buying $20 portal skins any time soon that's for sure no matter how much promise the game once had.

I am totally lost here. So the dev is some kind of bobby kotick junior (or atleast he thinks he is) but he's totally missing the target?

Like...the bosses and how punishing everything is (either by wasting the key or removing any reward from the monolith) is fairly widely hated...How does that help him make money when he's not selling gear on the store?

Like..if they just removed DR, made it so bosses became increasingly powerful as trash mobs do as corruption grows and reduced how punishing some stuff is the game would be probably perfect.

The systems are there, people (me included) praise the crafting system and the (even if it's an illusion of choice) variety inside of every skill. It's just the brick walls that make the progression we work for, the builds we try to make sense of a complete waste of time.

I dont mind hard bosses, as long as i'm not getting absurdly one shot or i get harshly punished by it. In a dungeon your key is wasted, go out to farm another key, then cross the dungeon and THEN you have your round 2. With mono bosses you lose stability so you have to get back and grind it back before you can attempt it again...

The game is purposedly wasting your time to force an engagement (curiously...just like kotick's WoW....) and this is why people just move on.

I want to play this game, i want to enjoy the game, i had so many ideas for every single ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ class in the game...But it's just not fun and it feels like a waste of time.

Even the infamous gate keepers in Elden Ring just required you to walk back for a few seconds before you're fighting again. And with no loss to the player as long as you either spend the runes or make sure you get them back.

Edit: And to answer to a question i missed from ravenkid. I never thought i needed better gear against the bosses because i had pretty much the best i could get my hands on. I am supposed to go to a higher corruption level so i can get more exalted and uniques to work with. If i'm in corrupion 0 pretty much all i have is good yellows that i can tinker with crafting. If with all i have, with crafted empowered yellows, i am both getting one shot by the boss AT THE SAME TIME that i deal no damage to it...and i know i am fine in the power curve because i destroy most trash except for the rares.... It simply makes absolutely NO SENSE.

We are not talking about a high corruption level where the game has scaled above what your build is meant to achieve...We're not talking about a single mob being a challenge to beat, at that point bosses would understandably destroy you just by looking at you.

We are talking about corruption 0 which is still even "part of the story of the game".

D3 always has a limit on what your build can achieve, but it always start weak to give you a stepping stone. And that stepping stone is completely ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up in this game. You need a ladder to be able to reach it. You canNOT ask the players to just go and watch guides about how you're supposed to fight bosses. You should instead give them room to learn it themselves, it would make it more engaging, they would enjoy the game better, and they would keep playing more and more as they try different classes and builds. If instead you expect them to go experience the game on youtube and then perhaps try it out themselves...they're OUT.

[Ravenkid9266]

Oprindeligt skrevet af SayHelloRoMaH:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Ravenkid9266:

How boss DR works: Bosses start with 3x HP. When the boss reaches 99% HP DR will start to fall off. The more damage the boss takes the more HP it will have. for example, increasing your character’s damage by 80% causes them to kill bosses 50% more quickly.

Because creating a series of stats for a boss that a player cannot kill is difficult to do EHG just decided to slap a roundabout way of drawing out the boss fights. This does not apply to high end builds who can sub 5 seconds T4 Jurla (strongest current boss) and only serves to draw out fights for builds that have a more "middle of the road" damage output normalizing it with builds that did not build for damage. Meaning if you use your character resources on some damage you get normalized with builds that built for defenses/utility, and the real benefit only comes if you build for extreme damage and overcome this dynamic DR.

Not to be confused with the normal Damage Reduction that can be seen here:
https://lastepoch.tunklab.com/mobdr

Edit: Originally this system was far more punishing, and why all the builds pre 0.7.9C were mostly tank builds. in 0.7.9C EHG adjusted this system, but the adjustment was mostly shifting the math so the numbers stayed the same on screen where as the boss health bar stayed the same. This also has overflow due to leech mechanics.

Edit2: Example you are dealing DPS, then you weave in some burst damage, now you go back to dealing the same DPS. That portion of DPS you are dealing after the burst, it is now lower in effectiveness then the portion before the burst thanks to dynamic DR, even though it is the exact same DPS.

Cringe, this system dishonest.

In the live stream for 10.13.23 mike touched on this. The timestamp is: 1:30:26
The TLDR is the current system is an abject failure. The goals of the system to draw out the boss fights to force the player to experience the boss mechanics is something they are committed to, so expect a rework in the future but expect the core idea of drawing out the fight to stay. mike also continues to cling to a much earlier claim that damage numbers are the problem.

meaning no matter what EHG comes up with, tank build will still be the meta because why spend resources on building damage if you are going to be punished for it. However given how much damage is available given so many more damage nodes I expect any future change to also be side stepped just as the current system is.

mike also references people on forums pointing out how this system is currently broken, and how those people are 100% correct. He closes with this planned future untested system will be elegant and enhance your power fantasy.

Edit: Went back and found this developer quote Aug 6th 2000 "We are broadly happy with how boss fights are currently taking" Standard EHG operating procedure, everything is fine we are happy with this system. Nothing changes, then suddenly the system is broken and in need of a rework. I mean is it really a system if its only been scrapped and reworked once?

[Athos the Mad]

Oprindeligt skrevet af RodHull:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Ravenkid9266:

To be fair real engagement is far more difficult then just say cutting your character progression by hidden under the hood systems designed and admitted to have the goal of drawing out the fight, or inflating the boss fights with one shots.

Well indeed which is why the number of players engaging with LE daily is still so low. Cause mostly people either realise the con job, or just get a sense that it feels 'off'

I can include myself in that, long before I realised the extent of the problem I knew the game was just not clicking, it did all the right things, it looked right, it had the right gameplay loop but it just didn't land. It wasn't till I started digging I realised how empty it is underneath.

And you see thats what makes me stick around, I do feel somewhere under all this is still a good game or at least a good concept for a game, but yeah I won't be buying $20 portal skins any time soon that's for sure no matter how much promise the game once had.

I am a noob, I went from having no fun to having quite a bit of fun to literally negative fun. The big lagonn boss or whatever his name is. Idk if my build is bad but I went from doing well to doing almost no damage to this particular boss and nearly every attack oneshotting me. Then I tried grinding for weapons behind the sealed areas and nothing at all drops (I'm lv 55 and those areas scale to like 15 or 65.) Then I come onto these forums and I start seeing posts about how items do nothing and it's all just a tedious level grind. Sucks honestly.
It doesn't help that I can't play online at all because I get constant disconnects in this game.

[Koala 4peace]

Oprindeligt skrevet af RodHull:

And you see thats what makes me stick around, I do feel somewhere under all this is still a good game or at least a good concept for a game, but yeah I won't be buying $20 portal skins any time soon that's for sure no matter how much promise the game once had.

Yeah, still here because i still cling to the hope that maybe a miracle occurs and they make the choice of making a videogame and not a live service program. They won't, but they may.
Which i guess make me a complete sucker. 🥳🤪🤣

Guess that after 1.0 i will be here a lot less.

[RodHull]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Athos Atreides:

I am a noob, I went from having no fun to having quite a bit of fun to literally negative fun. The big lagonn boss or whatever his name is. Idk if my build is bad but I went from doing well to doing almost no damage to this particular boss and nearly every attack oneshotting me. Then I tried grinding for weapons behind the sealed areas and nothing at all drops (I'm lv 55 and those areas scale to like 15 or 65.) Then I come onto these forums and I start seeing posts about how items do nothing and it's all just a tedious level grind. Sucks honestly.
It doesn't help that I can't play online at all because I get constant disconnects in this game.

It's broadly because the game apes lots of systems from similar games, without fully understanding why they work or why they should be different here. So it apes boss fights from POE which for a long time have employed really quite bad (IMO) one shot death mechanics and huge telegraphed floor wipes. The difference in POE while they are still annoying you can (A) build to defend against them (B) reliably damage the bosses with the right sort of builds.

LE on the other hand is clunky (making fights feel harder cause it just lacks the fluidity and smoothness of better games) its bosses have dynamic damage resistance (so unless you vastly overpower and brute force them you doing 100 damage vs 150 is basically meaningless. Or rather you can wail on a boss for 10 x 100 damage hits (silly numbers for example) and it does more than someone who hits them 3 times for 100 then a big hit for 400 then 6 more 100 damage hits, cause the latter example the second cluster of 100 damage hits now do less for 'reasons'. And because the underlying mechanics are not great they can't balance high damage mobs/bosses properly so they cheese their own system by making many boss hits massive damage DOTs meaning your defences you spent days building become near worthless.

Added to which the Lagon fight has been 'problematic' (as in broken) for years. It apparently got fixed in the last patch but its the only patch I haven't tried so cannot say if thats true or not.

[inovade]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Ishiga:

The devs of these games wanting you to play around their boss mechanics forcing those mechanics to be present in the duration of the fight is not "lazy design". In fact it took work to make this system that keeps these fights at a minimum length so the player has to actually learn to handle the fight's general mechanics.

Stop asking for this to change. The lazy ones here are the players.

NO, this is a game about NUMBERS, not your human reflex. it's an ARPG not Dark Souls like!!! RNG is the GOD!!! you make build with NUMBERS!!
how the F, a resistance of 75% and defense of 30% still not enough?? i know i use squishy character, but that still doesnt make sense

it's like QTE from OG RE4 knife fight all over again, that's just LAZY cheap shot. those projection attack should have high damage, but never 1 shot player

just look at that damn squid, how is that boss fight when so many particles flowing around in your screen?? when am i suppose to shoot, when am i supposed to evade?? not everyone is the so called "git gud". and this is the only guy ever to kill me over and over again. maybe if it has a manual evade button (with i frame), but nope, nothing like that

IT IS LAZY design!!!

[inovade]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Athos Atreides:

I am a noob, I went from having no fun to having quite a bit of fun to literally negative fun. The big lagonn boss or whatever his name is. Idk if my build is bad but I went from doing well to doing almost no damage to this particular boss and nearly every attack oneshotting me. Then I tried grinding for weapons behind the sealed areas and nothing at all drops (I'm lv 55 and those areas scale to like 15 or 65.) Then I come onto these forums and I start seeing posts about how items do nothing and it's all just a tedious level grind. Sucks honestly.
It doesn't help that I can't play online at all because I get constant disconnects in this game.

same here, and i'm quite like this game. so i had to stop playing for a few months before actively playing again to wait the update.
even then.... it's still getting boring. the map getting too big but for what? nothing entice me for exploration either (even with the 1 shot chest and the prison thingy). the damage from enemy is either too low to notice or almost kill you (with their big projection attack), sure it's "easy" to evade but there's too many of them. i'd rather have low to mid damage for every enemy, that's more engaging (to wake me up) rather than having my character died from random enemy (after 1 shot every enemy, who gets too close)

and then that damn squid, i just hate him so much. the other boss is rather fun and rewarding, but not this guy with his 1 shot BS. it's an ARPG full of NUMBERS, not made for human reflexes... if i want to play that, i would play dark souls instead, but i play LE, not dark soul