Why I don't like the LP system

[MrWitz]

First off, the LP system is actually great. I think it's a unique take on crafting in an ARPG. It gives us 2 different types of items to chase (LP's and t7 exalts), and chase-items are great for ANY type of RPG.

But let me explain the reservations I have and why I don't like the system in its current state.

I have clocked in 270 hours since 0.9 dropped. I've built 3 toons to 100, and my favorite so far is the notorious Flame Wraith build based around the unique staff Aberrant Call.

In my 270 hours, I've found a total of 3 "3LP" items, 2 were garbage rings.....but the other was a stunning 3LP Aberrant Call with +10 wraiths and +3 Level of Summon Wraith. Yeah, I know, JACKPOT.

As I do the math in my head though, I realize that once I slam the merge, even with 3LP, I have only a 50% chance of getting the 2 mods I'm seeking (minion spell damage, and cast speed).

So here's my problem. To find a item like this is perhaps a once in a lifetime chance. Will I ever find another 3LP Aberrant Call? Probably not. But if the 50% odds aren't in my favor, it's essentially bricked. It'll be no better than the 1LP Aberrant Call I'm currently using.

When someone finds an exceedingly rare item such as this, it shouldn't be a 50% chance that it will end up being used in our build. People like to say that LE's crafting is more deterministic than most, but that just isn't true at all.

My proposed change would be to allow us to either choose whether to accept or reject the mods it rolled, or allow us to re-roll the LP's as many times as we wish (in both cases the exalted items would be consumed, though in the latter you'd keep whatever mods rolled on it until you did the dungeon over again and consumed another exalt).

All I'm saying is, a bricked 2-3LP item just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. It adds such an egregious layer of grind that LE just doesn't need right now. What do you all think?

edit: what if there was a resource as rare as the Rune of Creation that we could use to 'cleanse' our LP mods. Hmm...

[RodHull]

MrWitz původně napsal:

This is all true, but I believe this will be fixed with trade. All RPG's have this 'problem' where a person gets to the end of their build and loot is almost all meaningless. That's fine though if we have trade, because then even if I don't find anything useful for my own build, I can sell what I did find and thus feel some tangible progression from my playtime.

Except they are splitting the playerbase with their weird over complicated trade system. And we don't even know how its going to fully work yet.

[Ravenkid9266]

MrWitz původně napsal:

This is all true, but I believe this will be fixed with trade. All RPG's have this 'problem' where a person gets to the end of their build and loot is almost all meaningless. That's fine though if we have trade, because then even if I don't find anything useful for my own build, I can sell what I did find and thus feel some tangible progression from my playtime.

Nah the developers are too anti-trade for this faction system to be a solution to the problem you describe. Will it work in general? hard to say but for this problem I do not see it working out that well.

[Urza]

I mean if you can sell things you dont want to buy things you do want, then for this particular complaint trade seems like a reasonable solution.

Thats also not accounting for the fact that the game will then be seasonal and most players will probably not be sticking with a single character for more than the ~3ish months each season is likely to last.

We're coming up on 2 months into 9.0. The OP has been clocking by their estimate about 4.5 hours a day on average in that time, which is a lot for some people, and even without trade its taken them this long to hit a wall that frustrates them.

I think this is a false problem.


Actually once trade exists, if its not ridiculously restrictive, power-users like the OP may be able to buy 3-4LP uniques for any and all slots they want by 2 months into the cycle, and they'll be here instead complaining getting LP is too easy.

[Ravenkid9266]

Urza původně napsal:

I mean if you can sell things you dont want to buy things you do want, then for this particular complaint trade seems like a reasonable solution.

Thats also not accounting for the fact that the game will then be seasonal and most players will probably not be sticking with a single character for more than the ~3ish months each season is likely to last.

We're coming up on 2 months into 9.0. The OP has been clocking by their estimate about 4.5 hours a day on average in that time, which is a lot for some people, and even without trade its taken them this long to hit a wall that frustrates them.

I think this is a false problem.


Actually once trade exists, if its not ridiculously restrictive, power-users like the OP may be able to buy 3-4LP uniques for any and all slots they want by 2 months into the cycle, and they'll be here instead complaining getting LP is too easy.

Trade is quite restrictive given the information we know about it.

LP 3-4* items are "balanced" by their theoretical nature the lead developer Mike said as much on stream, so the odds of them dropping is quite low, then compounding that on someone willing to trade it. Yes not just rare for you or me or bob, but server rarity. Some rare LP items are "balanced" to not be in existence on the server.

Edit: * even some LP 2-1 items depending on the base.

[MrWitz]

Urza původně napsal:

I mean if you can sell things you dont want to buy things you do want, then for this particular complaint trade seems like a reasonable solution.

Thats also not accounting for the fact that the game will then be seasonal and most players will probably not be sticking with a single character for more than the ~3ish months each season is likely to last.

We're coming up on 2 months into 9.0. The OP has been clocking by their estimate about 4.5 hours a day on average in that time, which is a lot for some people, and even without trade its taken them this long to hit a wall that frustrates them.

I think this is a false problem.


Actually once trade exists, if its not ridiculously restrictive, power-users like the OP may be able to buy 3-4LP uniques for any and all slots they want by 2 months into the cycle, and they'll be here instead complaining getting LP is too easy.

I haven't actually hit a wall, and that's not what upsets me. I have A LOT of upgrades that I can make to my gear, but they require perfect rolls, and that's fine.

What upsets me is that a 3LP Aberrant Call (an item so rare you'll likely never find again) has a 50% chance to give you the 2 mods you need.... And if it bricks, it becomes an exceedly rare piece of garbage. And THAT doesn't add a single bit of enjoyment to the grind required for upgrades to our endgame builds.

[Dyer1981]

MrWitz původně napsal:

Urza původně napsal:

I mean if you can sell things you dont want to buy things you do want, then for this particular complaint trade seems like a reasonable solution.

Thats also not accounting for the fact that the game will then be seasonal and most players will probably not be sticking with a single character for more than the ~3ish months each season is likely to last.

We're coming up on 2 months into 9.0. The OP has been clocking by their estimate about 4.5 hours a day on average in that time, which is a lot for some people, and even without trade its taken them this long to hit a wall that frustrates them.

I think this is a false problem.


Actually once trade exists, if its not ridiculously restrictive, power-users like the OP may be able to buy 3-4LP uniques for any and all slots they want by 2 months into the cycle, and they'll be here instead complaining getting LP is too easy.

I haven't actually hit a wall, and that's not what upsets me. I have A LOT of upgrades that I can make to my gear, but they require perfect rolls, and that's fine.

What upsets me is that a 3LP Aberrant Call (an item so rare you'll likely never find again) has a 50% chance to give you the 2 mods you need.... And if it bricks, it becomes an exceedly rare piece of garbage. And THAT doesn't add a single bit of enjoyment to the grind required for upgrades to our endgame builds.

so at base, you want a system that guarantees you'll get what you want otherwise there is no point in pursuing it?

That defeats the entire purpose of trying to find the item. They are supposed to be very very rare. Its the only thing you have left to do in the game.

The enjoyment should come from... playing the game. If that isn't enjoyable, then you should play something else.

All of these posts baffle me, you're all talking about it like its... global politics. It's a video game my friends. That's all it is. You kill demons and find boots and sometimes the boots are good and sometimes they suck. Thats the game.

[Urza]

Ravenkid9266 původně napsal:

Trade is quite restrictive given the information we know about it.

LP 3-4* items are "balanced" by their theoretical nature the lead developer Mike said as much on stream, so the odds of them dropping is quite low, then compounding that on someone willing to trade it. Yes not just rare for you or me or bob, but server rarity. Some rare LP items are "balanced" to not be in existence on the server.

Edit: * even some LP 2-1 items depending on the base.

I think there are enough real and imminent things to be upset about in life if I were so inclined. I'll wait until we actually get trade to be upset about it.

and honestly who the ♥♥♥♥ cares if rare things are rare

Dyer1981 původně napsal:

All of these posts baffle me, you're all talking about it like its... global politics. It's a video game my friends. That's all it is. You kill demons and find boots and sometimes the boots are good and sometimes they suck. Thats the game.

so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ true

[RodHull]

Urza původně napsal:

Dyer1981 původně napsal:

All of these posts baffle me, you're all talking about it like its... global politics. It's a video game my friends. That's all it is. You kill demons and find boots and sometimes the boots are good and sometimes they suck. Thats the game.

so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ true

I tell you what baffles me more... people who come on discussion forums for video games then are surprised by people discussing video games.

It's like going to the local pool and being surprised how many people are swimming.

[ninakoru]

MrWitz původně napsal:

It has everything to do with the fact that when you find that 'once-in-a-lifetime' unique with 2 or 3 LP that will ABSOLUTELY change your build's power and sustainability, it shouldn't get bricked by a thoughtless RNG system. It just shouldn't, IN MY OPINION.

Well, that's about it. If a unique item absolutely needs 2 affixes from a rare item in order to be useful, the problem is not the system, but the unique design.

I don't feel it is that way, but sometimes can get near, for example with belts: if many unique belt are only useful once you get cleanse or cooldown recovery + hybrid/inc health, then your unique belts belts are trash.

I have a very similar problem with a 3LP belt I didn't get the exalted to try the smash, if the item doesn't get CDR + exalted health, I'm better going with an exalted belt with my build, thus "bricking" the upgrade. If I want to be picky, CDR + exalted health + cleanse would be the only 3 affixes that would make this once in a lifetime belt objectively superior to any rare belt.

Thankfully I don't need this upgrade, so I'm fine with my current exalted belt.

"Good" uniques to me, are those that you can equip with 0 LP and are useful enough in that state, and also when you only need 1LP to compete with rares. These are very very few, for very few builds. Most of the uniques are badly designed and mostly noob traps.

[MrWitz]

ninakoru původně napsal:

"Good" uniques to me, are those that you can equip with 0 LP and are useful enough in that state, and also when you only need 1LP to compete with rares. These are very very few, for very few builds. Most of the uniques are badly designed and mostly noob traps.

100% true. They need to just flat out buff all uniques, honestly. Maybe then it wouldn't be so depressing to brick a 3LP item. That's definitely another solution to the problem.

[thedeadmanshow87]

I cant wait until I understand what half of this conversation means..lmao
But, I do wish there was a higher chance to get good stuff we could actually use..I mostly pick up unique items, that belong to another character. So I cant even use it.

[Urza]

thedeadmanshow87 původně napsal:

I cant wait until I understand what half of this conversation means..lmao
But, I do wish there was a higher chance to get good stuff we could actually use..I mostly pick up unique items, that belong to another character. So I cant even use it.

Idk if you know how in PoE a lot of uniques are literally useless in endgame because the base item they're on is just too low level to have stats good enough to be worthwhile on an endgame character?

Well. this game had given itself the same problem. Even earlier in early access end-game characters mostly wore extra-strong rares called Exalteds because the raw stats were stronger than most uniques. Only a few uniques were really worth using, and most low-level ones were garbage.

The LP system was made to solve this problem and make any unique potentially worth using, because it lets you craft some (or all) of the stats of Exalteds straight onto Uniques with no downsides.
Lower level uniques drop with LP more frequently and are more likely to have more LP slots. 4LP means you can have all 4 extra Exalted stats glued straight onto the Unique. 1LP means it gets only one. Higher level uniques are much less likely to drop with LP because they have stronger raw stats in the first place. (which doesnt mean they cant be garbage anyway)

So the point is to make any unique potentially worth slotting if you farm enough.
The OP is complaining that a high-level unique they have thats already worth slotting, that they already have a 1LP boosted version of, isnt that easy to make even stronger than it already is.
Theoretically some other much lower level unique staff with 3LP or 4LP would be about as easy to farm as their 1LP high-level staff. So if they're not stuck making builds only around high-level unique staves, they could potentially make some other build with any other unique staff about as easily. That would be the system working as intended.

[Hazel]

The entire crafting system is like this. Too much RNG to shine and it kills my joy of the game and makes me feel like I don't wanna play.

I have no reason to ever be excited for loot ever because it's never loot it's just a chance at maybe getting loot if you do everything correct AND get good rng.

May be at somepoint JUST THE ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ DROP should feel good instead of just being anxiety inducing because the devs don't want us to ever ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ win.