Why I don't like the LP system

[MrWitz]

First off, the LP system is actually great. I think it's a unique take on crafting in an ARPG. It gives us 2 different types of items to chase (LP's and t7 exalts), and chase-items are great for ANY type of RPG.

But let me explain the reservations I have and why I don't like the system in its current state.

I have clocked in 270 hours since 0.9 dropped. I've built 3 toons to 100, and my favorite so far is the notorious Flame Wraith build based around the unique staff Aberrant Call.

In my 270 hours, I've found a total of 3 "3LP" items, 2 were garbage rings.....but the other was a stunning 3LP Aberrant Call with +10 wraiths and +3 Level of Summon Wraith. Yeah, I know, JACKPOT.

As I do the math in my head though, I realize that once I slam the merge, even with 3LP, I have only a 50% chance of getting the 2 mods I'm seeking (minion spell damage, and cast speed).

So here's my problem. To find a item like this is perhaps a once in a lifetime chance. Will I ever find another 3LP Aberrant Call? Probably not. But if the 50% odds aren't in my favor, it's essentially bricked. It'll be no better than the 1LP Aberrant Call I'm currently using.

When someone finds an exceedingly rare item such as this, it shouldn't be a 50% chance that it will end up being used in our build. People like to say that LE's crafting is more deterministic than most, but that just isn't true at all.

My proposed change would be to allow us to either choose whether to accept or reject the mods it rolled, or allow us to re-roll the LP's as many times as we wish (in both cases the exalted items would be consumed, though in the latter you'd keep whatever mods rolled on it until you did the dungeon over again and consumed another exalt).

All I'm saying is, a bricked 2-3LP item just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. It adds such an egregious layer of grind that LE just doesn't need right now. What do you all think?

edit: what if there was a resource as rare as the Rune of Creation that we could use to 'cleanse' our LP mods. Hmm...

[wtfdouble]

If farming improvements for the build you like to play is more time consuming than just making whole new builds around items you randomly find while playing, then something is wrong with the system - just my 2 cents.

[MrWitz]

Originally posted by wtfdouble:

If farming improvements for the build you like to play is more time consuming than just making whole new builds around items you randomly find while playing, then something is wrong with the system - just my 2 cents.

Idk, I've really enjoyed the grind.

When you grind for a few days for that one unique with just 1 LP on it, and then your slam bricks it, you're back at square one. And that's okay on items with 1LP because you know you'll eventually find that again.

But if you brick a rare item base with 2LP or 3LP, there is no 'square one' because finding those items was just pure unadulterated luck anyways.

[RodHull]

Sadly this system is locked in, many complaints like this were raised years ago, the current system is their 'fixed' system, that gives an illusion of being less bad. But has almost identical chances to brick items that the old system did.

Personally I find any system that copies BDO crafting horrendous. As BDO has crafting designed to waste your time and enforce grind... go figure.

[wtfdouble]

a good system could maybe allow you to upgrade to the best gear in finite playtime even if you're unlucky with drops - like merging 3-5 LP1 into a single LP2 and so on...

[Ravenkid9266]

Originally posted by wtfdouble:

a good system could maybe allow you to upgrade to the best gear in finite playtime even if you're unlucky with drops - like merging 3-5 LP1 into a single LP2 and so on...

Part of the issue here and in general with the LP system is some high LP items are designed to be so rare that they functionally do not exist. Mike touched on this topic during an older stream, that is how they balance those items and it is the closest to a "chase" item in LE. He also referenced those high end LP items being so rare they functionally will not drop across the servers cycle.

So I cant see any upgrade in LP being even considered. Much like how "bricking" an item is intended, as Rodhull points out "bricking" is intended to introduce something to chase, as opposed to a way to increase player power.

At least on the upside you can think of LP items as icing on the cake, they are never required for the power to clear the content. Yes even if you want to style on LE and sub 7 seconds clear T4 Jurla LP items are not needed to do so.

[RodHull]

Originally posted by wtfdouble:

a good system could maybe allow you to upgrade to the best gear in finite playtime even if you're unlucky with drops - like merging 3-5 LP1 into a single LP2 and so on...

I think thats the point... if you 'finish' your build you might log out and stop buying MTXs. The system is copied from a game that does it to enforce grind, here its no different.

[wtfdouble]

It would still take a sh*tton of time but at least it could give you a chance to max out your primary items for your build thus making more build viable/playable

[Urza]

Originally posted by wtfdouble:

If farming improvements for the build you like to play is more time consuming than just making whole new builds around items you randomly find while playing, then something is wrong with the system - just my 2 cents.

or you sell randoms and buy what you want

[MrWitz]

Originally posted by Ravenkid9266:

Originally posted by wtfdouble:

a good system could maybe allow you to upgrade to the best gear in finite playtime even if you're unlucky with drops - like merging 3-5 LP1 into a single LP2 and so on...

At least on the upside you can think of LP items as icing on the cake, they are never required for the power to clear the content. Yes even if you want to style on LE and sub 7 seconds clear T4 Jurla LP items are not needed to do so.

Yeah, but that's just the thing. LP items are literally the only true 'power' items in this game. No one gets excited when a t7 exalt drops, even if it's what you need....and that's because they're not rare.

What DOES get us going is seeing a LP on a rare item we need. That's literally the ONLY dopamine hit in this game, and yet it's the one thing that bricks over and over again. It's such a horrible system right now.

[Ravenkid9266]

Originally posted by MrWitz:

Originally posted by Ravenkid9266:

At least on the upside you can think of LP items as icing on the cake, they are never required for the power to clear the content. Yes even if you want to style on LE and sub 7 seconds clear T4 Jurla LP items are not needed to do so.

Yeah, but that's just the thing. LP items are literally the only true 'power' items in this game. No one gets excited when a t7 exalt drops, even if it's what you need....and that's because they're not rare.

What DOES get us going is seeing a LP on a rare item we need. That's literally the ONLY dopamine hit in this game, and yet it's the one thing that bricks over and over again. It's such a horrible system right now.

Not arguing with you, in fact I agree. I have, and seen others attempt to argue that LE is a bit lacking in chase over the years and well the response is typically not well received. It is often perceived as an "attack" on the game, and even EHG staff have responded...lets say less then HR approved, over the years.

At the end of the day LP is an extension of the itemization debate. Originally it was denied, then it got rolled into a feature. To quote the developer Dan in an interview he did with Zizaran and Judd the CEO: "We don’t want to aim for gear to be as high of a portion of your total power of build customization as other games though." --Simplified but here is the entire Link: https://forum.lastepoch.com/t/multiplayer-dev-q-a-with-zizaran-transcribed/50339

Conversely you could package this issue as a lack of chase in general, and that is a fair point to make. However with the balance of the game revolving around move or die, and a difficulty around even purposefully designed anti-synergy bad builds still able to progress, I simply do not see EHG engaging with anything related to items as they relate to player power or its effects on chase.

As someone pointed out LE does not have "build enabling" Items I think it was Lizardirl, but not 100% sure.

It is easy to hyper focus on a single aspect of LE and question why not this or that, but its all cogs working together in furtherance of a design goal, and often you have to take a broader perspective, often with a bit of shifting of goals, before things click into place.

[RodHull]

Originally posted by Ravenkid9266:

As someone pointed out LE does not have "build enabling" Items I think it was Lizardirl, but not 100% sure.

It is easy to hyper focus on a single aspect of LE and question why not this or that, but its all cogs working together in furtherance of a design goal, and often you have to take a broader perspective, often with a bit of shifting of goals, before things click into place.

I said this years ago, and was roundly poo-pooed by the defence force on here. But yes I think you probably mean Lizardirl, as I doubt you remember or even saw my argument on here years ago

It has a a few, and at least 1 of those if a pure meme thing that nobody would ever use cause its garbage (whether they add support later for it who knows)

Your right though its just all sorts of poorly conceived, lacking and shallow systems all piling up on each other. When you look at the EA tag and look at say one or two in isolation a newer player might see them as not insurmountable. But those of use who've been here longer know it all adds to a very much insurmountable problem.

You cant fix the crafting without reworking the dull and powerless loot, you cant fix the dull and powerless loot without fixing to much player power being on skills, you cant fix to much player power on skills without reworking the core mechanics of the game... (there are more systems than this but broadly you get the point)

It reminds a bit of how D3 was gimped by its very design, its systems were so inherently flawed that it took them basically reworking the game in an expansion to make it somewhat fun to play. And even then it retains many of those flaws.

[MrWitz]

I really don't think that fixing the LP system by simply allowing us to reroll the mods would require a complete rework of all the systems. That wasn't what I was asking in my op.

The devs simply need to understand that the mechanic of RNG that leads to bricking an extremely rare item simply isn't an enjoyable experience for anyone.

[Ravenkid9266]

Originally posted by MrWitz:

I really don't think that fixing the LP system by simply allowing us to reroll the mods would require a complete rework of all the systems. That wasn't what I was asking in my op.

The devs simply need to understand that the mechanic of RNG that leads to bricking an extremely rare item simply isn't an enjoyable experience for anyone.

Here is what would happen: More people would have more "properly" rolled items with LP. This is a reduction in chase, an already limited resource. It would also increase player power, this is contrary to design. It would also lead to less player engagement, and thus potential micro-transactions, as player engagement is the largest factor in turning players into payers.

Items provide a lower percent of your player power then other games, this is by design. The existence of the possibility of getting "quality" high LP item is by design to be faux chase, technically there but realistically unlikely. More so the higher LP on the rarer items. Getting good rolls to say nothing of perfect rolls on those items is again faux chase, it is technically possible but entirely theoretical.

If you threw up LP 4 Ravenous Void, even though not the rarest LP item just a popular example, with good rolls of desired affixes most people would assume it to be a modified item. At least one content creator already hit a "scandal" for doing exactly that. Faux chase will keep people playing longer. Even if you threw up LP 3 with desired rolls, it would be the same.

It is easy to point to one system and say this leads to a feels bad moment, and want to change it, but realistically the systems and design do not function in a vacuum. Yes, I do believe that the developers are aware of the feels bad moment with the system and as much as it would be nice to see it change, it is extremely unlikely. I am not arguing against changing it, simply pointing out the reasoning behind it being the way it is.

[medledan16]

Originally posted by MrWitz:

First off, the LP system is actually great. I think it's a unique take on crafting in an ARPG. It gives us 2 different types of items to chase (LP's and t7 exalts), and chase-items are great for ANY type of RPG.

But let me explain the reservations I have and why I don't like the system in its current state.

I have clocked in 270 hours since 0.9 dropped. I've built 3 toons to 100, and my favorite so far is the notorious Flame Wraith build based around the unique staff Aberrant Call.

In my 270 hours, I've found a total of 3 "3LP" items, 2 were garbage rings.....but the other was a stunning 3LP Aberrant Call with +10 wraiths and +3 Level of Summon Wraith. Yeah, I know, JACKPOT.

As I do the math in my head though, I realize that once I slam the merge, even with 3LP, I have only a 50% chance of getting the 2 mods I'm seeking (minion spell damage, and cast speed).

So here's my problem. To find a item like this is perhaps a once in a lifetime chance. Will I ever find another 3LP Aberrant Call? Probably not. But if the 50% odds aren't in my favor, it's essentially bricked. It'll be no better than the 1LP Aberrant Call I'm currently using.

When someone finds an exceedingly rare item such as this, it shouldn't be a 50% chance that it will end up being used in our build. People like to say that LE's crafting is more deterministic than most, but that just isn't true at all.

My proposed change would be to allow us to either choose whether to accept or reject the mods it rolled, or allow us to re-roll the LP's as many times as we wish (in both cases the exalted items would be consumed, though in the latter you'd keep whatever mods rolled on it until you did the dungeon over again and consumed another exalt).

All I'm saying is, a bricked 2-3LP item just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. It adds such an egregious layer of grind that LE just doesn't need right now. What do you all think?

edit: what if there was a resource as rare as the Rune of Creation that we could use to 'cleanse' our LP mods. Hmm...

A really easy solution to all this is to create a "Glyph of revert time" (This is a time game). It's a rare glyph that drops now and then and allows you to save an item that just bricked. I also have a complaint regarding this game. Too easy to brick items that take weeks to grind for.

[Rogan]

Originally posted by MrWitz:

(...) People like to say that LE's crafting is more deterministic than most, but that just isn't true at all. (...)

Specially as someone who has a 2LP Aberrant (+11, +3) and played a wraith necro up to lv90 (I prefer the Ghost Maker, curiously), I can see your point. Also, I'd say LE's crafting system is indeed quite deterministic, and in a great way, for all of the levelling experience, making it very cool and fluid. And still somewhat deterministic (again, in a great way) in end-game.

BUT I guess the developers decided to drop some of the determinism for randomness in the very high-end of LE's gameplay and character building, which I really understand.

Still, I think they could review their choices here. I hope they add more currencies... I mean, Runes!