How Complex / Difficult is it to get into this game?

[sleeve]

From D3 to PoE

[Ravenkid9266]

Poe- Ocean- Wide and Deep.
D4- Lake- Less so but plenty for most.
D3- Water park- Only so many times you can go on the same rides.
LE- Bathtub-

LE- Everything stacks and according to the lead developer Mike the game is balanced around you being able to progress, even when purposefully building wrong. LE does have an in game search function that is very handy. Again according to the lead developer the best use of it is to search for the term "More" and cram all of those points into your build. There is little need to grind out gear, or follow complex builds, the game is pretty straightforward.

[sleeve]

Originally posted by Ravenkid9266:

Poe- Ocean- Wide and Deep.
D4- Lake- Less so but plenty for most.
D3- Water park- Only so many times you can go on the same rides.
LE- Bathtub-

LE- Everything stacks and according to the lead developer Mike the game is balanced around you being able to progress, even when purposefully building wrong. LE does have an in game search function that is very handy. Again according to the lead developer the best use of it is to search for the term "More" and cram all of those points into your build. There is little need to grind out gear, or follow complex builds, the game is pretty straightforward.

Hey good analogy thanks! I was very concerned cause I dont wanna spend time reading excel sheets xD

[Ravenkid9266]

Originally posted by sleeve:

Hey good analogy thanks! I was very concerned cause I dont wanna spend time reading excel sheets xD

Absolutely, LE is a perfectly fine casual game. Fire it up and go, mostly everything is viable so you can get a lot of entertainment out of it, without needing to go out of program or feel like you are "married" to it pressured to give it constant attention.

[sleeve]

Originally posted by Ravenkid9266:

Originally posted by sleeve:

Hey good analogy thanks! I was very concerned cause I dont wanna spend time reading excel sheets xD

Absolutely, LE is a perfectly fine casual game. Fire it up and go, mostly everything is viable so you can get a lot of entertainment out of it, without needing to go out of program or feel like you are "married" to it pressured to give it constant attention.

I love this review which captured my feeling, "Something to scratch that ARPG itch whilst waiting for D4" XD

[Tyyne]

Easy to get into and there's tons of build variety unlike D3 had. If you liked Grim Dawn etc, you will probably like this too.

[KingofApples]

My gut says Raven doesn't have many hours on LE.

LE has more build diversity than D3 and also D4 by the looks of D4 so far. There's also a lot of fundamental changes in LE, like having skill trees in the skills themselves, which are good for the genre. Many people also like the crafting system here.

It's not as complex as POE. You do not need a spreadsheet, and you probably can make it to the "endgame" with any build you create. Progressing through the endgame will test your build and gear a lot more.

I hard disagree it's less complex than Diablo 3/4. I don't need to do ANY theorycrafting in diablo and can turn my brain completely off. Not the case here. It's just that I personally can do all the planning myself, and don't need to google anyone else's 4-hour long complicated guides like POE.

[[LWT]Karpiu]

It's hard to use that type of difficulty scale since it's not even exactly in the middle. It's way less complex than PoE but offers way more than D3 in terms of character customization (builds). It's closer to Grim Dawn than to any of these games.

Also, Ravenkidmanynumbers and a few others here get an erection whenever they can talk ♥♥♥♥ about LE, doesn't matter if factual or not, so i wouldn't go by that. Him putting LE below D3 in terms of complexity is absolutely ridiculous and proves my point :D The only thing missing is copy/pasting that one video (which is now kinda outdated, as stated by the creator of that video himself) of a VK from like a year ago or two to make himself look like he knows what he's talking about.

If you'll do whatever i doubt you will progress far in endgame. People love to talk like that about LE. It is true to some extent that the game is forgiving as it was designed so that you can actually pull off many different builds and there won't be a situation like in PoE where to make a build work with a certain skill, you need a spreadsheet and follow every tiny detail or it won't work, and then good luck with respeccing it as well. That's not to mention the fact that some skills are total garbage and those total garbage skills rotate every league, so someone who doesn't know meta or is not a total nerd will just waste tens of hours on building a character that won't even work.

D3 makes builds for you, just follow the +xxxxx% damage to a skill of your choice and farm the seasonal set or some other completely busted one, boom you're done with your build.

D4 looks better after the recent paragon board info we got and feedback from Rhykker for example, but i wouldn't put it above LE in terms of theorycrafting yet. The game's not released so we can't compare.


LE has a rather unique approach to progressing and character building. You can play around with stuff and it's not punishing. It's just somewhere between those two games on different sides of the complexity spectrum and fills a similar role in the genre as Grim Dawn, which is not being D3 braindead tier, nor second job no-life PoE tier.

[Ravenkid9266]

Originally posted by KingofApples:

My gut says Raven doesn't have many hours on LE.

just under 200.

Originally posted by LWTKarpiu:

Also, Ravenkidmanynumbers and a few others here get an erection whenever they can talk ♥♥♥♥ about LE, doesn't matter if factual or not, so i wouldn't go by that. Him putting LE below D3 in terms of complexity is absolutely ridiculous and proves my point :D

Mike the lead developer recently on his stream said that he is playing a purposefully bad build. Anti-synergy etc. That is the benchmark he is using to balance and using that he expects even the worst build to make it to emp monoliths. If everything is viable then there are no builds. Where as at least in D3 Blizzard says take my hand and build this and then that and then this and you got your build. Yes it is restrictive, yes it is mostly required, but better? worse? hard to say. The only point I made was LE is less complex the fact that people insist on making LE out to be something it is not only speaks to how fragile their view of LE is.

Edit: Clarity, in D3 you simply cannot play some builds without specific items/skills and D3 basically tells you to get all synergistic parts of the build. LE says yes you can not use any synergy and progress just fine randomizing your build as Mike the lead developer pointed out.

It is also not a fair comparison to compare LE and GD. GD is perhaps closer to PoE in the specific narrow field of both games saying Work!, where as PoE requires math and spreadsheets GD says go earn your power, farm those MI hunt down the Devotion etc. Where as LE serves up your player power on a silver platter via levels.

For the record, because I keep having to point it out, when have I talked poorly about LE? Quote me, pro tip: you cant, because I have not. If saying LE is a perfectly fine casual game offends you, well there is a reason the saying is offense is taken and not given.

[sleeve]

Originally posted by KingofApples:

My gut says Raven doesn't have many hours on LE.

LE has more build diversity than D3 and also D4 by the looks of D4 so far. There's also a lot of fundamental changes in LE, like having skill trees in the skills themselves, which are good for the genre. Many people also like the crafting system here.

It's not as complex as POE. You do not need a spreadsheet, and you probably can make it to the "endgame" with any build you create. Progressing through the endgame will test your build and gear a lot more.

I hard disagree it's less complex than Diablo 3/4. I don't need to do ANY theorycrafting in diablo and can turn my brain completely off. Not the case here. It's just that I personally can do all the planning myself, and don't need to google anyone else's 4-hour long complicated guides like POE.

I think in D4 you only seen act 1, not nightmare dungeons / helltide, plus alot of legendary powers and paragon board isnt introduced yet. Might revise your opinion upon launch of 1st season

[sleeve]

Originally posted by Tyyne:

Easy to get into and there's tons of build variety unlike D3 had. If you liked Grim Dawn etc, you will probably like this too.

I think something they did much better than grim dawn is that pet builds are really a thing and the synergies provided. I loved GD and bought both expacs, but pet builds felt very overwhelming / an afterthought and I love zoo build

[sleeve]

Originally posted by LWTKarpiu:

It's hard to use that type of difficulty scale since it's not even exactly in the middle. It's way less complex than PoE but offers way more than D3 in terms of character customization (builds). It's closer to Grim Dawn than to any of these games.

Also, Ravenkidmanynumbers and a few others here get an erection whenever they can talk ♥♥♥♥ about LE, doesn't matter if factual or not, so i wouldn't go by that. Him putting LE below D3 in terms of complexity is absolutely ridiculous and proves my point :D The only thing missing is copy/pasting that one video (which is now kinda outdated, as stated by the creator of that video himself) of a VK from like a year ago or two to make himself look like he knows what he's talking about.

If you'll do whatever i doubt you will progress far in endgame. People love to talk like that about LE. It is true to some extent that the game is forgiving as it was designed so that you can actually pull off many different builds and there won't be a situation like in PoE where to make a build work with a certain skill, you need a spreadsheet and follow every tiny detail or it won't work, and then good luck with respeccing it as well. That's not to mention the fact that some skills are total garbage and those total garbage skills rotate every league, so someone who doesn't know meta or is not a total nerd will just waste tens of hours on building a character that won't even work.

D3 makes builds for you, just follow the +xxxxx% damage to a skill of your choice and farm the seasonal set or some other completely busted one, boom you're done with your build.

D4 looks better after the recent paragon board info we got and feedback from Rhykker for example, but i wouldn't put it above LE in terms of theorycrafting yet. The game's not released so we can't compare.


LE has a rather unique approach to progressing and character building. You can play around with stuff and it's not punishing. It's just somewhere between those two games on different sides of the complexity spectrum and fills a similar role in the genre as Grim Dawn, which is not being D3 braindead tier, nor second job no-life PoE tier.

Yea, definitely a breath of fresh air and loving it so far

[Inixus]

Originally posted by KingofApples:

LE has more build diversity than D3 and also D4 by the looks of D4 so far. There's also a lot of fundamental changes in LE, like having skill trees in the skills themselves, which are good for the genre. Many people also like the crafting system here.

It's not as complex as POE. You do not need a spreadsheet, and you probably can make it to the "endgame" with any build you create. Progressing through the endgame will test your build and gear a lot more.

I hard disagree it's less complex than Diablo 3/4. I don't need to do ANY theorycrafting in diablo and can turn my brain completely off. Not the case here. It's just that I personally can do all the planning myself, and don't need to google anyone else's 4-hour long complicated guides like POE.

This 100% agree, my only complaint so far is Warpath needs love, D3 did it better.

[Tyyne]

I genuinely can't remember, what options did you have with Whirlwind in Diablo 3?

[SoloQ]

Originally posted by Ravenkid9266:

Originally posted by KingofApples:

My gut says Raven doesn't have many hours on LE.

just under 200.

Originally posted by LWTKarpiu:

Also, Ravenkidmanynumbers and a few others here get an erection whenever they can talk ♥♥♥♥ about LE, doesn't matter if factual or not, so i wouldn't go by that. Him putting LE below D3 in terms of complexity is absolutely ridiculous and proves my point :D

Mike the lead developer recently on his stream said that he is playing a purposefully bad build. Anti-synergy etc. That is the benchmark he is using to balance and using that he expects even the worst build to make it to emp monoliths. If everything is viable then there are no builds. Where as at least in D3 Blizzard says take my hand and build this and then that and then this and you got your build. Yes it is restrictive, yes it is mostly required, but better? worse? hard to say. The only point I made was LE is less complex the fact that people insist on making LE out to be something it is not only speaks to how fragile their view of LE is.

Edit: Clarity, in D3 you simply cannot play some builds without specific items/skills and D3 basically tells you to get all synergistic parts of the build. LE says yes you can not use any synergy and progress just fine randomizing your build as Mike the lead developer pointed out.

It is also not a fair comparison to compare LE and GD. GD is perhaps closer to PoE in the specific narrow field of both games saying Work!, where as PoE requires math and spreadsheets GD says go earn your power, farm those MI hunt down the Devotion etc. Where as LE serves up your player power on a silver platter via levels.

For the record, because I keep having to point it out, when have I talked poorly about LE? Quote me, pro tip: you cant, because I have not. If saying LE is a perfectly fine casual game offends you, well there is a reason the saying is offense is taken and not given.

One very incorrect statement that kind of cripples your argument. If everything is viable then there are no builds. No. If everything is viable then everything is able to be a "build" is the accurate statement there. And oh no! A game that let's you make a stupid build that would never work in any other game! The horror!

How dare my stupid four beast bleed poison beastmaster actually be able to do something in the game that allows you to make a four beast bleed poison beastmaster!!! GAAAAHHH!! What a noob friendly game mechanic!

Also D4 has literally two talent choices for each ability. It's got the depth of a glass of water.

[Ravenkid9266]

Originally posted by SoloQ:

One very incorrect statement that kind of cripples your argument. If everything is viable then there are no builds. No. If everything is viable then everything is able to be a "build" is the accurate statement there. And oh no! A game that let's you make a stupid build that would never work in any other game! The horror!

How dare my stupid four beast bleed poison beastmaster actually be able to do something in the game that allows you to make a four beast bleed poison beastmaster!!! GAAAAHHH!! What a noob friendly game mechanic!

Ah I see the difference, English is not my native language. Yes using your statement we are in agreement. well except for the horror part, again what you are attempting to paint as a downside I am simply pointing out is. Given that even with your gross mischaracterization you stumble onto my point exactly, LE is as you put it "noob friendly" what I would call casual.

Edit: lost in the formatting: Yes if everything is a build, and everything is viable, then there is by juxtaposition little complexity so my initial ranking holds. Thanks for agreeing with me.