Endgame is bad and not fun

[Mirado]

I'll try to keep it short and simple.

93 mage/sorc

Without looking up guides I came up with a gear set and build that worked fine to the 90 monoliths, aside from being on bit on the squishy side, which I figure just kind of goes along with being a caster.

I finished fire with a little bit of trouble, but am now hard stuck on Heorot in the winter one. When the blizzard starts up and he charges away I'm dead in literal seconds with almost no time to react.

Then I noticed this was happening more and more when I tried doing different things.

The sanctum key boss with one shot mechanics, the mini bosses in the echos, some regular mobs in general in fact.

What makes it bad is the loss in progress. Not only do I have to play perfectly because if I slip up and make a mistake it is an instant death, I lose keys that are hard to come by or echo stability that is annoying to grind out over and over and over.

If you are going to keep in cheap one shot mechanics, let us fight the boss more than once at a time.

[Ravenkid9266]

You are struggling with boss mechanics because the game did not give you any incentive to learn them. Example you have fought Lagon before, did you know there is a pattern to his beam? Most do not learn it during the pre empowered monoliths because there is no reason to. Once you learn to move the difficulty mostly vanishes.

[Mirado]

Originally posted by Ravenkid9266:

You are struggling with boss mechanics because the game did not give you any incentive to learn them. Example you have fought Lagon before, did you know there is a pattern to his beam? Most do not learn it during the pre empowered monoliths because there is no reason to. Once you learn to move the difficulty mostly vanishes.

Yes, I see the pattern, the problem is that in many cases you cannot react to it in time. In fact, after struggling so much on Heorot, I went to go look up to see what I can do to help in the phase transition with the blizzard and most people that have beat it have cheesed the encounter by fighting him on a wall so he can't run away and almost instantly kill them. That doesn't sound like great design to me and could probably use some work.

And knowing the fights still doesn't address the issue that it feels terrible losing hours of work trying to farm a key or running the same maps forever to unlock the boss fight, blink and die to a one shot mechanic and then have to grind out more maps to unlock the boss again.

[Ravenkid9266]

Originally posted by Mirado:

Originally posted by Ravenkid9266:

You are struggling with boss mechanics because the game did not give you any incentive to learn them. Example you have fought Lagon before, did you know there is a pattern to his beam? Most do not learn it during the pre empowered monoliths because there is no reason to. Once you learn to move the difficulty mostly vanishes.

Yes, I see the pattern, the problem is that in many cases you cannot react to it in time. In fact, after struggling so much on Heorot, I went to go look up to see what I can do to help in the phase transition with the blizzard and most people that have beat it have cheesed the encounter by fighting him on a wall so he can't run away and almost instantly kill them. That doesn't sound like great design to me and could probably use some work.

And knowing the fights still doesn't address the issue that it feels terrible losing hours of work trying to farm a key or running the same maps forever to unlock the boss fight, blink and die to a one shot mechanic and then have to grind out more maps to unlock the boss again.

Oh believe me I get it, I understand where you are coming from. I am just trying to offer some help for what currently is. LE right now is "balanced" around highly telegraphed attacks that you are not supposed to tank, so all we can really do is checklist for pattern recognition, and advise movement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN5CyNkqmAo

Might provide a bit of food for thought, but it currently is what it is.

[MrWitz]

Op, I don't know how familiar you are with Arpg's, but not all builds are going to be powerful enough for endgame. Your build might just not be able to handle the content.

Every build has a ceiling, and you may have reached it. That's not the endgame's fault, that's just the nature of arpg's. I played a 'minion-only' build that was super fun, but its xps and survivability fell off a cliff when I got to empowered mono's, so I had to change things up and build something completely different.

Good luck out there.

[Mirado]

So the video agrees with one of my biggest gripes about the game is that it is needlessly punishing about letting you retry bosses. I have no problems with learning a boss and getting punished if I mess up with a mechanic but it sucks having my progress reset. If you want to keep the one shot stuff, let us keep trying the boss.

[Mirado]

Originally posted by MrWitz:

Op, I don't know how familiar you are with Arpg's, but not all builds are going to be powerful enough for endgame. Your build might just not be able to handle the content.

Every build has a ceiling, and you may have reached it. That's not the endgame's fault, that's just the nature of arpg's. I played a 'minion-only' build that was super fun, but its xps and survivability fell off a cliff when I got to empowered mono's, so I had to change things up and build something completely different.

Good luck out there.

I have been messing around with builds a bit and the only issue I have is survival. Like I said, I get that I'm playing a mage and not a tank and have to be careful about avoiding as much damage as possible, but the Heorot fight in particular is frustrating because it seems like the direction he is going to charge is random and if don't stay on top of him, you get caught in the blizzard and die and then you lose echo stability and have to farm more maps to fight him again which is just making me not want to play the game anymore.

[tiamats4esgares]

Eh, I'm changing this post, if you saw it, sorry. I watched the video and it convinced me of your side.

However, I will stick by some points I said in my OG post (whether you read that or not):

1. The bosses aren't hard *at low levels*, and you DO need better gear and better at dodging them. It's easy to overcome if you try.

2. I am convinced that your gear isn't good enough. And you were probably fighting the boss of Temporal Sanctum at level 1 or 2 and she's super easy at those levels. You need to change timelines when she does that big one-shot attack. How are you supposed to know that first time? I don't know. But I watched a video before I wasted a key and thus I never died. I don't like to waste things. Do some research before using rare drops. I do that in any game I play. *shrug*

3. But, you probably need more HP or resistances and/or critical strike avoidance (or less bonus damage taken on critical strikes).

4. If you are dying to the AOE blizzard outside the ice boss, then, ya know, use a teleport. You probably don't have to spec into it and level 1 is fine. Get more move speed on your boots. It is DEFINITELY able to be tanked through with move speed, you do not NEED a teleport, but since you're struggling, try it.

And I'll also say, the punishment for dying to a dungeon boss is too much. But not so for dying to a monolith boss. You only lose 50 stability. I've never found this to be a huge issue.

[The Tarnished Tarnish]

I''m quitting now, the whole one shot and your done ♥♥♥♥ is stupid. GL if you stay.

[n0b0dy!mp0rt@nt]

Originally posted by Ravenkid9266:

You are struggling with boss mechanics because the game did not give you any incentive to learn them. Example you have fought Lagon before, did you know there is a pattern to his beam? Most do not learn it during the pre empowered monoliths because there is no reason to. Once you learn to move the difficulty mostly vanishes.

anybody with an hint of arpg knowledge knows that ♥♥♥♥ is telegraphed.

bosses can be summed up to "dont stand in colored area" "avoid obvious telegraphed moves" for the most part

the literally only hard part on lagon is his waves during add phase. randomness is way harder than predictable.

[Ravenkid9266]

Originally posted by tiamats4esgares:

*Snip*

1. Like Thyworm pointed out most bosses are encountered at such a low level they are not given a fair incentive to learn the mechanics. I also question the logic of just go learn it out of game.

2. Sure it is entirely possible for specific builds to face-tank low tier bosses, with the proper gear. Be it story or low tier. See point 1. However how can both of the following be true?

Post-story bosses/high tier bosses are designed for you to move/mechanic out of attacks, and get better gear to deal with it?

Outside of Health defenses on gear has a cap. Resistances cap, crit resist cap, Health goes higher but has a gear cap as well. Outside of "active" defenses, you simply must engage with move/mechanics as your defense. Example: with crit resist 100%, resistances capped, and lets throw in some leech for good measure. You can easily face-tank Lagon. Try it on low end corruption empower Lagon, or T3-4 Jurla. Sure you can throw in some Health but how much difference will that make? Where as those same defensive layers on story bosses is a cake walk.

In short, I think there is some debate about the loss of progress with failure. I also think the game could provide a better learning experience for bosses in general. Finally as I have asserted in the past because moving is by design the best defense, outside of offense, simply saying get better gear is mathematically a poor option.

[Djozar]

Originally posted by MrWitz:

Op, I don't know how familiar you are with Arpg's, but not all builds are going to be powerful enough for endgame. Your build might just not be able to handle the content.

Every build has a ceiling, and you may have reached it. That's not the endgame's fault, that's just the nature of arpg's. I played a 'minion-only' build that was super fun, but its xps and survivability fell off a cliff when I got to empowered mono's, so I had to change things up and build something completely different.

Good luck out there.

This! I love making my own builds, but often find those meta builds on forums have been tried and tested. My build might get me to a decent place, but it just stops when I need it to go just a little further. Had to put my foolish pride aside and go with the tried and tested builds. Often, you can tweak those a little to feel like you have something unique.

[Mirado]

Originally posted by Ravenkid9266:

Originally posted by tiamats4esgares:

*Snip*

1. Like Thyworm pointed out most bosses are encountered at such a low level they are not given a fair incentive to learn the mechanics. I also question the logic of just go learn it out of game.

2. Sure it is entirely possible for specific builds to face-tank low tier bosses, with the proper gear. Be it story or low tier. See point 1. However how can both of the following be true?

Post-story bosses/high tier bosses are designed for you to move/mechanic out of attacks, and get better gear to deal with it?

Outside of Health defenses on gear has a cap. Resistances cap, crit resist cap, Health goes higher but has a gear cap as well. Outside of "active" defenses, you simply must engage with move/mechanics as your defense. Example: with crit resist 100%, resistances capped, and lets throw in some leech for good measure. You can easily face-tank Lagon. Try it on low end corruption empower Lagon, or T3-4 Jurla. Sure you can throw in some Health but how much difference will that make? Where as those same defensive layers on story bosses is a cake walk.

In short, I think there is some debate about the loss of progress with failure. I also think the game could provide a better learning experience for bosses in general. Finally as I have asserted in the past because moving is by design the best defense, outside of offense, simply saying get better gear is mathematically a poor option.

I don't think my gear is terrible, like I said, I made it to level 94 now and completed the level 90 fire monolith purely by winging it and doing my own thing.

I think the game may be a little too reliant on dance dance revolution mechanics, dodge this or die, but even that can be played around once you learn the fight.

I just don't think it is too much to ask that if I am fighting a new boss for the first time and am trying to learn the fight and die to a one shot mechanic, don't kick me out of the dungeon and take my key away or take my echo stability away and make me farm more maps. Just let me fight the boss again.

[Alexander Vendi]

Hang in there and learn the patterns.. its gonna get easier.

[Grebloc]

Originally posted by MrWitz:

Op, I don't know how familiar you are with Arpg's, but not all builds are going to be powerful enough for endgame. Your build might just not be able to handle the content.

Every build has a ceiling, and you may have reached it. That's not the endgame's fault, that's just the nature of arpg's. I played a 'minion-only' build that was super fun, but its xps and survivability fell off a cliff when I got to empowered mono's, so I had to change things up and build something completely different.

Good luck out there.

I am not familiar enough with this game to know how many viable builds there are... but the problem I see with many ARPGs is that there are only a few viable builds.

To me the point of an ARPG is experimenting with different builds to clear mobs and have fun, it is not fun to be shoe horned into a specific build because your build is wrong.

I am not saying that every build has to be viable. But I believe build success should be based more off of skill synergy, playstyle, and equipment... less off of this skill is worthless, this skill is OP, and if you are not using this specific unique why are you even playing that build...

Once again, reiterate. I agree somewhat, I believe builds should matter, but I hate the concept of a few meta builds, and anything else just not having endgame potential.

I guess in summary what I am saying, is it is not an ARPG problem, it is a design problem that has been accepted because many popular ARPGs suffer from this flaw. (I'm looking at you with laser eyes Path of Exile).

[mayrc]

A question..... i would say ok if you are a sentinel..... but a sorc? You have 2 teleports..... how can you NOT react in time? basically it means Boss must make 3 deathstrikes in a row with less then 1 second inbetween