Please don't make this mistakes from Diablo 4!

[ArkhanTheBlack]

I'm really looking forward to the release of this game and having just uninstalled Diablo 4 still in act 3 around level 30, because it was simply too boring, I'd really like to avoid the same thing happening to this game. For that reason I'd like to highlight some general game design points this game should keep an eye on.

I'd also like to say in advance that I don't think 'everything' is bad in Diablo 4. Actually, it has a pretty remarkable game engine and the combat feeling itself is fairly good. Maybe even better than in Diablo 3, though if it doesn't quite reach Lost Ark in my book. However, it also has some major flaws that aren't quite compensated by that.
Furthermore I'm writing this from the perspective of a campaign player - I'm not an endgame grinder. And I don't think Diablo 4 has a good campaigh despite its shiny cut scenes. Anyway, let's start.

1.) Skill progression
I think I had my 'final build' in Diablo 4 around Level 10 - 15, because the skills don't develop. The only thing missing was the ultimate. I therefore just changed my build a few times just to keep myself 'entertained', but even that got boring after a while. It was the first Diablo where I didn't have the feeling to get more powerful and impressive over time. Just the damage numbers floating over the monsters got bigger. Actually, it felt more like playing LoL or DotA hero, where the supposed playtime is 30 minutes. That's not how a Diablo-game should work. Skills progression should reach through the campaign, not just the first act. It doesn't have to be Path of Exile, but what D4 offers is just not enough.
That said, from what I've seen Last Epoch seems to be in a good position here, with its rather interesting skill trees. I hope it works out. :-)

2.) Monster progression
In most games (not just action RPG's) you start slow, by beating some weak goblins, zombies and such and then, while advancing in the campaign, the monsters slowly get bigger and more powerful. And there's always that occasional champion or boss monster that towers over the others and is a highlight to beat.
Now, in Diablo 4 I was already beating several meter high arch demons in the starting area and the normal monsters are often already so big and frequent that it's hard to notice actual champions and boss monsters. How am I supposed to get excited about advancing in the campaign, if the game shows everything it has to offer already from the get-go?!? And when you actually do progress, it's the same monsters over and over again, just with bigger health bars.

3.) Regions and dungeons need a narrative
There a different ways to design regions and fill them with monsters. You can either try to keep a certain narrative and try to make the encounters fitting to the regions, but still diverse and interesting.
The gold example for something like that would be the Morai Ruins in Lost Ark, where you have unique monsters, ambushes, changing water levels and more, or the brilliant Siege of Luterra.
But it doesn't really need such high effort locations to already get decent result. When you start out in Titan Quest you fight against beastmen and they often group around their war camps, while free areas where you just want to traverse fast, only have some occasional wildlife encounters. And undead gather mostly around graveyards and crypts. Simple things that feel realistic and immersive.
Or you can do it the simple way like Diablo 4 and just create a plain area or a bunch of similar looking dungeon rooms and pack them tightly with a random zoo of monsters with little to no consideration if they fit to that area or not.

4.) Don't make an open world if you have no idea how to make it work
Even Bioware fell into that trap. Ironically, I thought Blizzard would be a good fit because of WoW, but it seems that that team was never involved. The side quests are boring and aren't really paced to be played along the campaign. Especially since the story and setting doesn't exactly scream 'Take your time - nothing's at stake at all!'. Lost Ark also doesn't have particular good side quests, but they are very easy to pick up and finish along the campaign.
Also, I know that at some point you're supposed to get a mount in Diablo 4. But that doesn't really make travelling the endless and dull open world plains more exciting when I don't have it yet. Especially if they are almost more tightly monster packed than the dungeons. And not to forget that respawing monsters don't exactly raise the fun to slay them.
But well, the good thing is that Last Epoch probably and fortunately won't have all those problems since it doesn't have an open world, right?!

So, the Diablo 4 ship has sailed and it is as it is, but Last Epoch is still in early access and has the time to work on its flaws and fine tune the edges. I don't want this game to fail like D4, so please take your time to get it into a good state for the release.

[Carlos Spicywiener]

Maybe you are burned out. It happens. I tried to play last epoch again and simply got bored after about level 55

[oldschooldiablo]

Originally posted by Carlos Spicywiener:

Maybe you are burned out. It happens. I tried to play last epoch again and simply got bored after about level 55

I don't think OP is burned out. They are talking about problems with D4 they don't want to see in LE.

Everything OP said about D4 is why my wife and I stopped playing right around the same lvl OP did.

Last few times I tried pushing through the acts in D4 just caused boredom. It's such a slog.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Yes, I haven't played LE yet. But since its release isn't far off anymore, I'd like them to avoid the same mistakes Diablo4 did.

[oldschooldiablo]

Originally posted by ArkhanTheBlack:

Yes, I haven't played LE yet. But since its release isn't far off anymore, I'd like them to avoid the same mistakes Diablo4 did.

imo LE is much better than D4. only time i get bord in LE is once iv reached impowered monos. after that i dont see any reason to keep pushing. end game is pretty much done once you have beaten all 3 lvl 90 mono zones. and have empowered monos.

this is something i think needs either a rework or just plain scraped. i dont like an endless end game mechanic. id rather seeing something like say POE. where coruptions works kinda like awakened lvl works in POE.

id keep pushing farther in end game if it was not endless. to me that just means your never really done with it. but hey thats just my take on it. for me its about completing the content. not min maxing my build.

theres already endless arena i dont see a need for end game to do the same thing. the ladder climb imo should just be endless arena.

i dont want to see more mechanics become endless once seasons start. cuz im out if that does happen. and iv been playing this game pretty much sence it hit EA (early access)

[Mumyo]

D4 is too bloody monotone, there is no spike no feel of progression. The best times are in fact, the very early levels before you get your final passive, because you can still switch skills and builds without much consequence.
Once you reach past level 45, everything is pretty much set, your gameplay is like that, forever.
Even without going for meta builds, most builds aren't viable, you either die or wont do enough damage, not enough mana, or everything is in cooldown. The build viability is bloody narrow.
It's not bad, but it's definitely not innovative or great at all.

[Ravenkid9266]

https://steamcommunity.com/app/899770/discussions/0/3193612534987694959/

The developers largely do not engage with steam, if you wish for your perspective to reach the correct audience consider the official forum, discord, or reddit.

Best of luck!

[sibbs]

Originally posted by Ravenkid9266:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/899770/discussions/0/3193612534987694959/

The developers largely do not engage with steam, if you wish for your perspective to reach the correct audience consider the official forum, discord, or reddit.

Best of luck!

That's a bad choice from the developers in my opinion, I've played games on Steam for over 15 years and always used Steam game forums, I believe a lot more gamer's won't use an outside forum too.

[thedeadmanshow87]

My opinion is different about d4, but thats ok. Im lvl 65 on 3 different characters now lol The campain was a slog to get threw. But the cutscenes and story behind each act, i absolutely loved and thats what got me threw it. lol
The end game is where the fun is. for me anyways. Tons of stuff to do, helltide events, nightmare dungeons, tree whisper missions, renoun, pvp, world bosses ext ext
I really do love LE myself though..Everyday I still come on and play for a few, run a few monos..Maybe play POE for a few minutes, back to d4.
OIm an odd gamer, I bounce around like crazy lol
Maybe its my adhd idk..
I hope LE does more, and more with the end game...Not much of an endgame here. I enjoy everything else though

[¤ OpN ¤]

Originally posted by thedeadmanshow87:

But the cutscenes and story behind each act, i absolutely loved and thats what got me threw it.

This is why I refunded it. I can watch the story on YouTube and I realized right away that the game play seemed very boring to me, while the cutscenes had me hooked. I realized I was playing the game for the wrong reason. I wanted to follow the story but simply wasn't having fun.

[celticarmoury]

My barb is level 70 on D4 and I have no desire to play it. Leveling up feels like I am getting weaker. I killed quicker at level 10 than I did at level 50. No targeted farming and no loot filter makes it such a slog.

[Tyrone Biggums]

Originally posted by celticarmoury:

My barb is level 70 on D4 and I have no desire to play it. Leveling up feels like I am getting weaker. I killed quicker at level 10 than I did at level 50. No targeted farming and no loot filter makes it such a slog.

you dont get weaker as you level really it all comes down to your build and gear your level almost never matters but past 80 it takes a grip to level im 83 and i havent played ina few days

[T3DPool]

Originally posted by celticarmoury:

My barb is level 70 on D4 and I have no desire to play it. Leveling up feels like I am getting weaker. I killed quicker at level 10 than I did at level 50. No targeted farming and no loot filter makes it such a slog.

if you feel weaker at 70 than you did at level 10, thats definetly on you. my barb started to tear through mobs at that level way quicker than ever before. If you don't understand how your build works or what to look for in gear thats definetly just a skill issue and not you "getting weaker as you level".

[Stockwerk 13]

diablo 4 is simply a bad game, no wonders everyone gets bored after a few hours

[T3DPool]

Originally posted by Stockwerk 13:

diablo 4 is simply a bad game, no wonders everyone gets bored after a few hours

I mean you say that, meanwhile last epochs numbers are dropping like it's New World, if this is the trend for this game it'll be dead 2 weeks after 1.0

https://steamdb.info/app/899770/charts/

[¤ OpN ¤]

Originally posted by T3DPool:

Originally posted by Stockwerk 13:

diablo 4 is simply a bad game, no wonders everyone gets bored after a few hours

I mean you say that, meanwhile last epochs numbers are dropping like it's New World, if this is the trend for this game it'll be dead 2 weeks after 1.0

https://steamdb.info/app/899770/charts/

What does one have to do with the other. The person made an opinionated statement. But sure bring whataboutism into it to defect from D4 being a boring game.