For those worried about P2W.

[Kaynann]

For those worried about the game becoming P2W, so far there is no indication that this will happen and I will list some reasons:

• Just notice the passion for development and attention that the game team gives to the community.

• About Tencent, it made a small investment in the company in order to receive part of the profits (this is something normal in the corporate world), this does not impact the development of the game, the team remains free to do what it is doing. This has already been mentioned by the Game Director on the forum.

• Cosmetics like skill effects, armors, pet's, everything that impacts only visually are not P2W, this is the best way to monetize a game ensuring continuity in the Live Service.


Just enjoy the game, so far there's nothing to worry about this.

[Numb-Tung]

Originally posted by CoolRick:

When you accept an investment, you're now beholden to the investors. this is normal in the corporate world and often called "selling out" because now the company leans more towards pleasing the shareholders rather than the players.

[Kaynann]

Originally posted by CoolRick:

When you accept an investment, you're now beholden to the investors. this is normal in the corporate world and often called "selling out" because now the company leans more towards pleasing the shareholders rather than the players.

Tencent has investments in several games and not all of them she dictate rules. In this case, her participation really seems to be just profits, and the way the team is leaning towards getting it is through cosmetic means.
To worry about and impact the development team, Tencent needs to buy much more than it currently has.

[Irot Noot]

What is apparent is we are seeing returns on that investment as players. This game is continuously improving all the time.

[MeatRack84]

How much EHG is beholden to TenCent depends entirely on the details that both parties agreed to when they negotiated a contract. If TenCent only invested 10% into EHG, then they hold no kind of leverage beyond 10%.

[Kaynann]

Originally posted by CoolRick:

This is untrue. Any investment comes with a legally binding contract. The dev team is now legally required to put Tencent's interests ahead of the player's if there's any contention.

Not sure why you think they need to buy more. No amount of passion from the development team will trump their legal obligations...and who is to say they don't want more investment money? Other investors may hop in due to Tencent's involvement, and also Tencent is well-known for increasing their stake in companies.

We're talking about a small investment, not a majority buy.

[Ravenkid9266]

Originally posted by Kayell Kondratt:

Originally posted by CoolRick:

This is untrue. Any investment comes with a legally binding contract. The dev team is now legally required to put Tencent's interests ahead of the player's if there's any contention.

Not sure why you think they need to buy more. No amount of passion from the development team will trump their legal obligations...and who is to say they don't want more investment money? Other investors may hop in due to Tencent's involvement, and also Tencent is well-known for increasing their stake in companies.

We're talking about a small investment, not a majority buy.

Full disclosure I am not part of the anti-tencent group, but speaking in broad generalities what I think people are referencing is the fiduciary responsibility that comes with investing.

Setting aside the reputation tencent has, as well as the history, I just want to focus on the fiduciary responsibility aspect. No company invests out of the charity of their heart, and it is entirely plausible that between the relatively small player base, by comparison, and the cosmetic only, historically less profitable, aspect there is even if unspoken a pressure to perform financially.

Now on the other hand what do we know about EHG? They recently gave out rather large refunds to kickstarter backers over the trade situation. They made a long rambling post about their "vision" and "commitment" to it, only to not only back track but to moonwalk into a position that is directly counter to their previous statements about trade and wanting finding items yourself to be the best way to progress. A recent statement from a dev confirmed they want trade to be equal to finding the item yourself.

Now I bring it up not to start a fight over right or wrong but to illustrate that EHG is not an unmovable monolith. Coupled with the legal responsibility it not currently cause for pitchforks but I believe it is cause for concern. The same concern you would give any plausible situation for a negative outcome.

[Kaynann]

Some people are putting the cart before the horse.
It has already been confirmed that the team is free and independent to continue working on the game as it has already done, and monetization is aimed at cosmetics, Tencent will only receive part of the profit.
As long as the team remains independent and with the same vision as now, there is no reason to worry.

[BimboGooch]

Originally posted by Kayell Kondratt:

For those worried about the game becoming P2W, so far there is no indication that this will happen and I will list some reasons:

• Just notice the passion for development and attention that the game team gives to the community.

• About Tencent, it made a small investment in the company in order to receive part of the profits (this is something normal in the corporate world), this does not impact the development of the game, the team remains free to do what it is doing. This has already been mentioned by the Game Director on the forum.

• Cosmetics like skill effects, armors, pet's, everything that impacts only visually are not P2W, this is the best way to monetize a game ensuring continuity in the Live Service.


Just enjoy the game, so far there's nothing to worry about this.

10 cent literally buys everything now in gaming, most of 10 cent games in the west I dont think even have p2w. In china sure or korea sure, but thats the region its self.
in america usually p2w doesnt last on pc/xbox/ps4. Its how you kill a game super fast, UNLESS its a card game, where people just accept hardcore p2w.

The arpg community is hardcore even casual players, adding pretty p2w stuff even a little, generally will kill a non f2p game pretty fast.

[oldschooldiablo]

Originally posted by CoolRick:

This is untrue. Any investment comes with a legally binding contract. The dev team is now legally required to put Tencent's interests ahead of the player's if there's any contention.

Not sure why you think they need to buy more. No amount of passion from the development team will trump their legal obligations...and who is to say they don't want more investment money? Other investors may hop in due to Tencent's involvement, and also Tencent is well-known for increasing their stake in companies.

Wrong that's not how it works. Do u know the contract they signed don't think so.

Tencent owns 25% they don't have any control over the devs with that much invested. Now poe where they own well over 80% ya then they do. Even in poe tencent is hands off anything GGG does. Same here with LE.

What determines what EHG has to do is put in the contract both parties sign. Which never of us know what it said.

[RodHull]

Originally posted by bnawrocki01988:

Wrong that's not how it works. Do u know the contract they signed don't think so.

Tencent owns 25% they don't have any control over the devs with that much invested. Now poe where they own well over 80% ya then they do. Even in poe tencent is hands off anything GGG does. Same here with LE.

What determines what EHG has to do is put in the contract both parties sign. Which never of us know what it said.

I mean that is literally how it works.

We have no contract with EHG, they could if the mood took them and they felt like being nihilistic just cancel the whole game tomorrow, release what they had as 1.0 and skip off into the sunset and none of us who played more than 2 hours would have a legal leg to stand on to do anything about it.

On the other hand Tencent have a contract with them, they invested, whatever the terms their WILL be terms to that contract which will state things like expected returns, rules on defaulting on pay of the money, rules on if the game isn't released etc etc.

So while we don't know the contract we know there IS a contract, and we do not have one cause as you guys always remind us 'It's early access'

So tell us again who do you think they are more inclined to care about, us or Tencent (or any of their investors)

Its specifically this reason Crate refused investment over the years from giants like Microsoft, cause in their founders words it meant 'relinquishing control of their product on some level'

[oldschooldiablo]

Originally posted by CoolRick:

Originally posted by bnawrocki01988:

What determines what EHG has to do is put in the contract both parties sign. Which never of us know what it said.

The fact that they do have a contract proves what I said is right :/ and you're contradicting yourself.

A few of you are getting investment mixed up with voting rights. These are two totally different concepts that can be, but are not required to be, related. As you said, we don't know what the contract says (other than there is one), so a 25% ownership could make majority decisions for all we know. So what you're saying isn't useful.

The entire existence of a contract means that SOMETHING is legally enforceable. So now EHG is obligated to another company. At the very least, they have fiduciary duties as well as the unknown contents of the contract. This means they are not completely free to make their own decisions. Does that make sense?

You're welcome to believe it's all cherries and rainbows for EHG while at the whims of a giant company for now and in the future. But the extreme naivety and a misunderstanding of investment means at best you're very likely spreading wrong info, and at worst you'll be taken advantage at some point.

I didn't contradict my self. We both know theres a contract.

It's also been confirmed by the devs of both these game tencent doesn't step in and tell them what to do or the direction.

This can also be part of the contract where the investing party has no say what so ever.

Did u ever think about that for a sec.

[oldschooldiablo]

Originally posted by RodHull:

Originally posted by bnawrocki01988:

Wrong that's not how it works. Do u know the contract they signed don't think so.

Tencent owns 25% they don't have any control over the devs with that much invested. Now poe where they own well over 80% ya then they do. Even in poe tencent is hands off anything GGG does. Same here with LE.

What determines what EHG has to do is put in the contract both parties sign. Which never of us know what it said.

I mean that is literally how it works.

We have no contract with EHG, they could if the mood took them and they felt like being nihilistic just cancel the whole game tomorrow, release what they had as 1.0 and skip off into the sunset and none of us who played more than 2 hours would have a legal leg to stand on to do anything about it.

On the other hand Tencent have a contract with them, they invested, whatever the terms their WILL be terms to that contract which will state things like expected returns, rules on defaulting on pay of the money, rules on if the game isn't released etc etc.

So while we don't know the contract we know there IS a contract, and we do not have one cause as you guys always remind us 'It's early access'

So tell us again who do you think they are more inclined to care about, us or Tencent (or any of their investors)

Its specifically this reason Crate refused investment over the years from giants like Microsoft, cause in their founders words it meant 'relinquishing control of their product on some level'

It is and I know that I was trying to point out part of the contract may also be that tencent has no say in what EHG does.

Which devs have confirmed they don't. Which means it's probably part of the contract as well as things u said about returns and such

[RodHull]

Originally posted by bnawrocki01988:

This can also be part of the contract where the investing party has no say what so ever.

Did u ever think about that for a sec.

You can't be this naive surely?

Lets say your right and they have a clause which prevents any direct meddling (unlikely with a giant like Tencent and a startup like EHG but lets roll with the presumption)

If the game starts not doing so well financially and Tencent threaten to walk away and pull their investment cause EHG aren't hitting their targets, do you think they will just hand the money back? Really??

[Koala 4peace]

Unless someone post the contract, this is all conjectures. Entertaining to discuss, but nothing to fight about.

[RodHull]

Originally posted by Koala 4peace:

Unless someone post the contract, this is all conjectures. Entertaining to discuss, but nothing to fight about.

I mean we aren't fighting we are just pointing out logic.

They have A contract with Tencent and their other investors. They have no contract with us (beyond releasing a game) its fairly easy to see the point being made.