A fault I found with most character classes

[Elhazzared]

So far I am having a lot of fun with game. In no small part because the necromancer is pretty good. However after the Rogue was released and I gave it a go because, why not I realised a couple things. First is that I didn't saw any skill that I was particularly in love with because of either one limitation or another, but the second and biggest problem which flows around all classes is. It had no passive abillities.

As you know, in most ARPG there are skills which are active and skills which are passive just there to provide some powerful bonus without the requirement of having high levels of APM.

So while I started with the necromancer which for me is basically spam wraith and have the other permanent minions with the ocasional movement skill use as a secondary active (because permanent minions are hardly what I consider active), I quickly realise, I cannot play anything else.

Honestly speaking, I can deal with 2 active skills, maybe 3 at most if the third is something I'd use on rare ocasions like a buff or a debuff cast on a boss fight and probably no more than once or twice.

It would be good to flesh out the skill trees of all characters with some passive skills for the people who can't handle many skills or who simply don't want to be spamming 5 different skills all the time.

[Elhazzared]

Publicado originalmente por Terrarius:

But, typing long texts flawlessly without ever looking at the keyboard is quite different from only handling 5 keys+mouse.

I read some stuff about reaction from you but-- using 5 keys here has little to do with reaction. More with muscle memory and planning ( since monsters act very predictable and your rotation is not going to change much based on the situation)

That is a common misconception in alot of games. Reaction time matters little. What truly matters is knowing what to expect, anticipating things before they even start happening.

Like, in fighting games you see people reacting to 0.5 second attacks quite often because they only focus on that 1 visual(or audio) cue that comes with that attack--- and than they get hit by something super slow because they did not anticipate it and paid all their attention towards that 0.5 second attack that never came.

Correct, typing text and handling 5 keys is different. However for the average person, when you tell them, handle the mouse and then have your finger on this key for this abillity. It works. When you say, handle the mouse (which has keys too and you are using at least 3 of them) and handle these 2 keys here oh and don't forget, you have the potion key up there too if you need. Now what happens most times is quite simple. It doesn't matters that the fingers can be around the place you are going to press because for the average person the brain goes like. I need to use X abillity and then it's like, huh, fark which key was that? Looks down at keyboard... That key. And then they press it. Invariably. No matter how many times it happens. They may get it right every now and then without looking, but it will never come to a point where they never need to look.

Rotations actually don't really happen unles it's a really happy coincidence. What I mean by this is that the non main skills each has a different cooldown which means you cannot just go 1, 2, 3 and I'll repeat again in 5 seconds. The piano type play which by the way, more managable but still not fun as more than proven by the potion piano that is PoE. With different cooldown you cannot do a rotation and depdning on skill you might need to use them differently. So you might want to always use the dash to generate some buffs (although normally save for dodging AoEs) and in that case you want to dash in a certain direction, and then you want to use a rain of arrows so you want to center that and then you want to throw a decoy so you actually want to throw it to the side or behind so attacks don't go in your direction.

Of course some maybe a case of, these are just 3 attacks all directed at the enemy and I can just spam on top of the enemy which is more managable but still not fun. But often cases they are not.

Regardless. It is a fact that the average player has problem handling multiple skills. The more skills you give them, the more they screw up and in many cases it gets to the point that it's better to not even have it than to have and actually lose even more DPS just to try and handle it. but even just losing it in this game is major loss. I cannot stress how much damage you are losing by not using the full array of skills the enemies are designed to be hard already with the full array for the average player, without it's the same as not going anywhere.

Adding passive skills will lower the entry barrier for the average player allow them to play through all the content. They will still never reach anywhere near a good player using the 5 skills. Heck they will not even get close to a good player using a single skill, that is the difference between an average player and a good player. But it certainly does not hurts the game to allow the average player to play the entire game. PoE is a major example of this. PoE only really started to have a big population once they released ascencion and started giving players more power. Without it, PoE would be a very different game today because the company would have not grown.

[Elhazzared]

Publicado originalmente por Banitek:

So this will be a response to the original post free of trolling so dont worry.

I understand where you are coming from, granted I can handle multiple buttons thanks to being a huge nerd with ninja like reflexes (jokes of course). Perhaps what would be best is to better word the post in general? Since the rogue just came out I'm sure there are plenty of viable builds somewhere in there that take advantage of 1 or 2 skills at once, obviously for a casual player this would make sense. Perhaps dig a little deeper and do a little looking around all the skills. You have to look at this with a grain of salt, it is beta and the class just came out, many renditions are sure to come with future updates.

To address with they usually only update games based off the top 10% its because the updates they make will only be noticeable by those as well. Your tom tim and bob aren't going to notice a reduction in AOE radius of .5 yards, with a increase between base cast times of .2 seconds simply because well....it only really matters when your pushing for seconds on a clear time etc.

Keep in mind I do understand your frustrations really I do, however, I wouldn't go as far to say its a problem with the class as a whole, I am sure there are plenty of people who are enjoying the play style of it.

So my personal suggestion to you, is perhaps come up with some ideas and share them with the discussions for the class itself on what you think, as far as some changes or additions to the class that would become useful to better appeal to all crowds of gamers for the rogue itself.

I hope this helps, and ill be sure to make a rogue and see if i can relate a little better to you :) cheers

Bani

As I did say to someone else. I am not saying the rogue specificly has a problem, it's a problem that all classes have, I did find the rogue skills to be a little lacking in fanfare and such, none gives me that awesome vibe whether from the looks or from looking at the possibillities to make somethong strong. Recently though I found something I could build out of it so I'm trying a poison build. Fortunately I managed to find a way to loop a second skill into one so I only need 3 active skills which is what I can handle without problems.

Another thing is that this is not meant as any sort of demand that it is gets done right now. I know the game is in development however, precisely because it is still in development it is the best time to give ideas as to how to improve the game. Development takes time and I don't expect anything by tomorrow morning when I wake up. But I do hope that issues found, in this case that most classes hardly have ways to make 2 to 3 skill builds which is what average people can handle are barely a thing.

This is a game problem because I see the struggles that average people often get, heck, I get many of them myself being an average player too. What happens when people struggle with the controls of a game is they stop playing because they don't want to struggle with the basic abillity which is being able to properly control their character, but that's exactly what happens when you tell them to pay attention to what the boss is doing, to the cooldowns, to attacking and to use your abillities well. Ifyou give the average players 2 to 3 active abillities and then passive buffs, he then won't struggle with the controls, he can dedicate his full attention to the fight and maybe even truggle with the fight but as long as it's not a BS fight (cough cough sirius cough), that is a struggle the player will enjoy. I remember struggling against the boss on the 3rd map of the monolith, the void one because my void res was low. I dided twice, upgraded my gear and beat it by the third time. That was fun! But that was also my necro build so I literally use 2 keys because the rest is permanent summons.

Of course, I know there is several people enjoying the game as it is. But we also have to take into account that these are also very good players. They are the kind of players who don't struggle with more than 3 active abillities. These are the kind of players who can easily play PoE, do the piano 5 potions, do 4 active abillities and on top of that they can easily beat sirius on A8 without breaking a sweat, probably without dying most of the times too. I think it is important to actually look at the other players as well though, not least of which because I'm a part of and have been feeling negletec by PoE since Delve when I helped that game grow as every other average player did.

[Azazel]

again. we have had older folks and handicapped people pipe up and say im not good yet i just found a build that worked for me. you still keep saying 'majority of people' 'these are all good players' the game is really casual. you just dont like having 5 skills, dont like us saying then play 2 because you feel you will miss out on damage. tell people who disagree with you they are wrong. tbh im impressed by the fact this thread is still going.

what would feel good and have you feel heard?

[spectre199]

the devs shouldn't have to change the game just because people are having problems. People who are having problems can easily make builds to make it easy for them.

Also saying that "Majority of people" having problems is not true, those who are having problems is in the minority.

This game just like others is really casual. All i'm seeing is that you don't like using 5 skills.

[Azazel]

spectre this is the part that amazes me, and is impressive. your dialog, has been said over and over. this is really beginning to feel like a my way or your wrong situation. im grateful its an improvement from earlier where people were told they were not of sound mind for disagreeing

[Elhazzared]

Publicado originalmente por spectre199:

the devs shouldn't have to change the game just because people are having problems. People who are having problems can easily make builds to make it easy for them.

Also saying that "Majority of people" having problems is not true, those who are having problems is in the minority.

This game just like others is really casual. All i'm seeing is that you don't like using 5 skills.

They don't have to change the game. Adding something is not making the different so much as it is adding more options. However let's go with the whole the Devs don't have to change the game kinda thing. True, but then the prospects for the game are not great. It will sell, but it will not sell well once reviews start coming out saying that you need to use several active skills or not stand a chance. (yes there are rare exceptions like the necromancer but people don't want to be forced into only playing 1 or 2 builds, they want to be able to have a varied amount of builds that they are able to play.

And it's not a I don't like. It's a I can't and the average person can't either. The problem starts when players are struggling with the controls. In a way it's worse than PoE because at least PoE is just BS game difficulty but people don't struggle with the controls.

Publicado originalmente por Lunacorn:

spectre this is the part that amazes me, and is impressive. your dialog, has been said over and over. this is really beginning to feel like a my way or your wrong situation. im grateful its an improvement from earlier where people were told they were not of sound mind for disagreeing

So you are ignoring all the other people who agreeded with me then? Ok then. Because there is about a 50/50 split here and that is saying a lot because the majority of people who play LE are not average people.

[Azazel]

my issue isn't who does or doesn't agree with you. ive stated before: the general blanket statements, and everyone else is wrong comments make it hard to have a mutual discussion. ive never said you are wrong, i have offered the fact that the topic name and its content make it hard to sift through to notice your idea about auras, ive expressed humour in how long this has gone on, and I have corrected the blanket statements/clarified how cool it would be if you provide sources if you continue to use them.

overall this is an impressive thread. i just am blown away it exists to this degree

[webmetalreese]

Publicado originalmente por Lunacorn:

my issue isn't who does or doesn't agree with you. ive stated before: the general blanket statements, and everyone else is wrong comments make it hard to have a mutual discussion. ive never said you are wrong, i have offered the fact that the topic name and its content make it hard to sift through to notice your idea about auras, ive expressed humour in how long this has gone on, and I have corrected the blanket statements/clarified how cool it would be if you provide sources if you continue to use them.

overall this is an impressive thread. i just am blown away it exists to this degree

I agree that this is an impressive thread, in the fact that i STILL do not know what is exactly the point of discussion.

I've tried to pull it out in a different number of ways - Finally I will just ask bluntly:

Is it because you do not own a keyboard or like to use a keyboard and prefer to right/left click your wireless mouse on the couch and that is how you play games?

If the answer is yes - I finally understand. If no, I'm going to get counseling or irritate a random person until they punch me.

[TitanDeath]

Publicado originalmente por Elhazzared:

Regardless. It is a fact that the average player has problem handling multiple skills.

Publicado originalmente por TitanDeath:

This would've further been solved if you just named an actual source rather than telling people that they're lazy and to go find it. When professionals write any articles, they name their sources not the reader. You learn this in high school English.

Again, like many people have said, where are your sources for this?

[Elhazzared]

Publicado originalmente por webmetalreese:

I agree that this is an impressive thread, in the fact that i STILL do not know what is exactly the point of discussion.

I've tried to pull it out in a different number of ways - Finally I will just ask bluntly:

Is it because you do not own a keyboard or like to use a keyboard and prefer to right/left click your wireless mouse on the couch and that is how you play games?

If the answer is yes - I finally understand. If no, I'm going to get counseling or irritate a random person until they punch me.

Of course I use a keyboard, like most people do and no, it's not because I just want to use the mouse, but I already use 2 keys on the keyboard normally, plus 3 keys on the mouse. I can still handle one more on the keyboard but that starts to noticably lower my performance like with most average people. If I then add a 5th key on the keyboard it becomes impossible to control to the point that I lose less DPS using less skills and taking that penalty, than trying to use 5 skills. And once again, this is perfectly normal for the average person.

Publicado originalmente por TitanDeath:

Again, like many people have said, where are your sources for this?

Like I said many times, go find your own sources. But if you even have eyes you probably don't even need to search the internet for such studies. Have you ever seen average people play? Invariably they always use builds with low amounts of keys. Why? Because they can't handle it. Do you see how for example in PoE average players that change builds that top players use that actually have several active skills, they always reduce it to 3, one of which is a movement skill?

The reason is, the average player can't handle many skills. If someone can handle many skills, they are already at bare minimum above average if not outright good.

[webmetalreese]

Of course I use a keyboard, like most people do and no, it's not because I just want to use the mouse, but I already use 2 keys on the keyboard normally, plus 3 keys on the mouse. I can still handle one more on the keyboard but that starts to noticably lower my performance like with most average people. If I then add a 5th key on the keyboard it becomes impossible to control to the point that I lose less DPS using less skills and taking that penalty, than trying to use 5 skills. And once again, this is perfectly normal for the average person.

When you say lower your peformance, I'm not 100% clear on what you mean. Are you with a disability or are an older person by chance? If you mean game - wise, DPS or confused on what to do, too many things going on etc?

Honestly i don't know about what normal is, I think that everyone has their own set of wants/needs/preferences. To me, you can use 5, 1, 15 none of it really matters other than the option to do so.

I just put in 4 hours with the rogue, made it to the council something and hit lvl 9. Basically I have been using flurry with the bow and acid bomb/smoke bomb and dash when I get mobbed.

Shuriken - nope, one flask is enough, I don't even need the basic attack anymore.

So to sum up - 3 buttons on the keyboard and left click to move but 4 is doable - just no reason to use shuriken and since I've been clearing the groups so quickly - smoke bomb is not needed.

To be completely honest, I'm already a bit bored.

[Elhazzared]

Publicado originalmente por webmetalreese:

When you say lower your peformance, I'm not 100% clear on what you mean. Are you with a disability or are an older person by chance? If you mean game - wise, DPS or confused on what to do, too many things going on etc?

Honestly i don't know about what normal is, I think that everyone has their own set of wants/needs/preferences. To me, you can use 5, 1, 15 none of it really matters other than the option to do so.

I just put in 4 hours with the rogue, made it to the council something and hit lvl 9. Basically I have been using flurry with the bow and acid bomb/smoke bomb and dash when I get mobbed.

Shuriken - nope, one flask is enough, I don't even need the basic attack anymore.

So to sum up - 3 buttons on the keyboard and left click to move but 4 is doable - just no reason to use shuriken and since I've been clearing the groups so quickly - smoke bomb is not needed.

To be completely honest, I'm already a bit bored.

Neither unless you consider 36 older and obviously no disabillity.

What happens for me and I've noticed for the average person playing. The mouse, as long as you keep, the usual, left move, right main attack and one thumb button for a secondary, that is alright. Then 1 key is healing and most people start having dificulty here. For me I still handle spacebar with my thumb just fine. But the moment I have to press any other key. almost everytime my eyes will immediatly go to the keyboard to confirm the position of the key and press it. This is less than ideal during a stressful situation that is a boss fight, you can't aford to take your eyes off the keyboard. If you put 2 keys on the keyboard, not only your eyes look down, but the brain is like. I need this abillity now, the key... that one. It just takes some extra half second on the decision and then pressing and then look back at the screen. This isn't just me though, this is most people, I already do slightly better by being able to handle spacebar. Not so much that I'd say I'm above average cause the average player just doesn't thinks to put one abillity on the thumb that makes the whole thing easier, if they do then they can probably also deal with the 3rd skill easily like I do.

You may be thinking, that is a you problem, not average person, but actually, watch average players play, you know, the guys who can't win hard games and in online competitive games are fairly placed in average scores. You will notice the pattern very easily. They have to look at the keyboard in this type of games if they use more skills than they can handle which is normally 2 to 3. That is also why you normally see them only using a very small amount of active skills in ARPGs.

Now I will agree with one thing. Yes, it doesn't matter how many skills you use, whether it's 1 or 15. Just play your own way and have fun. That is exactly what I've been "preaching" here. However your choise of using 1 or 15 skills shouldn't come with severe disadvantages. However as the game is right now, using 1 skill vs 5 is an unsurmountable disadvantage.

As for your rogue atempt, You say you are getting bored using 4 skills. Ok, I believe you. You say you are not struggling, I believe too. I would if I was using 4 skills. But to be fair that early in the game you can use a single skill and be fine, it's the further on the game goes that it gets harder to deal with less skills because you have less bonus comming from using more skills.

[webmetalreese]

Neither unless you consider 36 older and obviously no disabillity.

What happens for me and I've noticed for the average person playing. The mouse, as long as you keep, the usual, left move, right main attack and one thumb button for a secondary, that is alright. Then 1 key is healing and most people start having dificulty here. For me I still handle spacebar with my thumb just fine. But the moment I have to press any other key. almost everytime my eyes will immediatly go to the keyboard to confirm the position of the key and press it. This is less than ideal during a stressful situation that is a boss fight, you can't aford to take your eyes off the keyboard. If you put 2 keys on the keyboard, not only your eyes look down, but the brain is like. I need this abillity now, the key... that one. It just takes some extra half second on the decision and then pressing and then look back at the screen. This isn't just me though, this is most people, I already do slightly better by being able to handle spacebar. Not so much that I'd say I'm above average cause the average player just doesn't thinks to put one abillity on the thumb that makes the whole thing easier, if they do then they can probably also deal with the 3rd skill easily like I do.

I have yet to use a potion, so yeah early on it hasn't been an issue but most likely I will have to pot at some point. For my mouse, I don't even bind the secondary thumb button or anything - just left/right click and wheel to zoom.

I keep all my fingers on QWED and takes a min to register what they do, and when I stop to level up or something and take my fingers off - then yeah, i have to double check finger placement before getting back into it. If you know the button for the skill, then you can change it up quickly. Example I didn't double check and went into battle and I kept chucking out acid flasks but I wanted to use flurry. I knew acid was on my ring finger but was using my pinky, so I quickly switched one over cause pinky is flurry.

You may be thinking, that is a you problem, not average person, but actually, watch average players play, you know, the guys who can't win hard games and in online competitive games are fairly placed in average scores. You will notice the pattern very easily. They have to look at the keyboard in this type of games if they use more skills than they can handle which is normally 2 to 3. That is also why you normally see them only using a very small amount of active skills in ARPGs.

Sure, its your problem, and probably some others as well. I have problems regarding the other keys, like I, C, etc. Everyone has issues but I don't judge anyone nor fight about it when they say something that would make their game play smoother. I'm not here to offend, argue, criticize, just curious as to the reasoning is all. I'd like to see some more passives that actually do something, rather than make my flurry faster, etc Auras would be nice, either as skills, atrirbutes on weapons, like the pylons which I enjoy immensly.

Now I will agree with one thing. Yes, it doesn't matter how many skills you use, whether it's 1 or 15. Just play your own way and have fun. That is exactly what I've been "preaching" here. However your choise of using 1 or 15 skills shouldn't come with severe disadvantages. However as the game is right now, using 1 skill vs 5 is an unsurmountable disadvantage.

I'm not that far in, but at this point I would have to disagree with you. Let's say I just stuck to flurry, I feel that buffing that skill up and focused on using it would not give me a disadvantage over someone who used say flurry and acid strike and split the points between them. Again, that might be different end-game wise.

As for your rogue atempt, You say you are getting bored using 4 skills. Ok, I believe you. You say you are not struggling, I believe too. I would if I was using 4 skills. But to be fair that early in the game you can use a single skill and be fine, it's the further on the game goes that it gets harder to deal with less skills because you have less bonus comming from using more skills.

Yeah I'm just into the game as is and have yet to have a real challenge at all. Which then - bores me to tears. I'm just trying to slog through now to get where the fun is. I still feel that if you were to deny the other speicialized skill slots and focused on 1 or 2 you would have much better performance than spreading points out across the board.

Example - passive points for me have been all put into the most left one (I think its either speed or dmg) I ignored the other two. I only have one active speical which I chose flurry - I only unlock another perk when the first one is filled.

[Elhazzared]

Publicado originalmente por webmetalreese:

Lots of stuff.

If I kept my fingers in QWER, what would happen is, I need to press a skill. The brain will fail to know which finger to push down unless I look down and that is a fairly common thing. And well, yes, it is my problem, but you know what i meant is that this is fairly normal for an average person, it's not a disabillity.

As for damage, yeah, by end game it's totaly different. For example, my necro early on just destroyed bosses in a heart beat. By end game they take a while and manage to kill minions. The only pre end game boss I struggled with was the kraken like god and that was mostly because the area of the fight is poorly coded. once the fight starts, minions don't want to go up the stairs and fight so I was fighting him with what equates to not even a 5th of my damage output. Devs really need to work on that fight cause the platform doesn't likes minions when the boss is active.

And yeah, I feel your pain of leveling up a character. Everyone hates the slog to level up a new character to the fun part but it is part I guess. Sometimes I wish some Devs just gave an option that after beating the campian once to create a character at end game at like, level 50 or 60. Though I suppose it helps to slowly train the way the character plays.

The thing about the other specialised slots is. You are not spreading your points. You are still building your character for one skill or one way to play that skill. But the other specialised slots when at high levels have buffs. Like for example, you dash and you gain 4 stacks of jade arrow as an example. One skill that is not your main can provide you with either several buffs to your active skill that massively improves the DPS or provide several debuffs for the enemy.

I recently discovered that I can actually do a 3 skill rogue. By going flurry + multishot, multishot is just fired by flurry and never on it's own. Then decoy can make use of acid flask when it explodes or on a chance when it is attacked. And then dash for mobillity and buffs. It works quite well cause I'm doing flurry poison DoT.

[TitanDeath]

Publicado originalmente por Elhazzared:

Publicado originalmente por TitanDeath:

Again, like many people have said, where are your sources for this?

Like I said many times, go find your own sources. But if you even have eyes you probably don't even need to search the internet for such studies. Have you ever seen average people play? Invariably they always use builds with low amounts of keys. Why? Because they can't handle it. Do you see how for example in PoE average players that change builds that top players use that actually have several active skills, they always reduce it to 3, one of which is a movement skill?

The reason is, the average player can't handle many skills. If someone can handle many skills, they are already at bare minimum above average if not outright good.

I'm not going to search for two hours for a study that you support. If you want support from more people, you need to provide your sources. You won't get much support if you don't. Hell, I'm even willing to support you if you just provide a legitimate source that isn't yourself. If this was an English or Science teacher you would've failed for not providing a source for your claims. Don't expect other people to do your job for you. No one can take you seriously if you don't take this seriously yourself.