A fault I found with most character classes

[Elhazzared]

So far I am having a lot of fun with game. In no small part because the necromancer is pretty good. However after the Rogue was released and I gave it a go because, why not I realised a couple things. First is that I didn't saw any skill that I was particularly in love with because of either one limitation or another, but the second and biggest problem which flows around all classes is. It had no passive abillities.

As you know, in most ARPG there are skills which are active and skills which are passive just there to provide some powerful bonus without the requirement of having high levels of APM.

So while I started with the necromancer which for me is basically spam wraith and have the other permanent minions with the ocasional movement skill use as a secondary active (because permanent minions are hardly what I consider active), I quickly realise, I cannot play anything else.

Honestly speaking, I can deal with 2 active skills, maybe 3 at most if the third is something I'd use on rare ocasions like a buff or a debuff cast on a boss fight and probably no more than once or twice.

It would be good to flesh out the skill trees of all characters with some passive skills for the people who can't handle many skills or who simply don't want to be spamming 5 different skills all the time.

[Elhazzared]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย SimplyGnome:

Only 1 in 10 can handle FIVE BUTTONS in an ARPG? Sir. No.
I used to handle 40 in a much faster paced mmorpg, in pvp, and I am not a good twitch-skill gamer.

Your facts here are RIDICULOUS, not sourced, and Im actually afraid you might believe yourself.

And what does that say about you? That you are part of the 1 in 10, not the average player.

Now that we're done with that, if you could actually contribute in any meaningful way to the conversation or simply not disrupt it, that would be wonderful. There is been plenty of people who actually contributed both in favor and against. All you are doing is wasting boardspace by saying, I don't believe you cause I can do it.

[SimplyGnome]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Elhazzared:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย SimplyGnome:

Only 1 in 10 can handle FIVE BUTTONS in an ARPG? Sir. No.
I used to handle 40 in a much faster paced mmorpg, in pvp, and I am not a good twitch-skill gamer.

Your facts here are RIDICULOUS, not sourced, and Im actually afraid you might believe yourself.

And what does that say about you? That you are part of the 1 in 10, not the average player.

Now that we're done with that, if you could actually contribute in any meaningful way to the conversation or simply not disrupt it, that would be wonderful. There is been plenty of people who actually contributed both in favor and against. All you are doing is wasting boardspace by saying, I don't believe you cause I can do it.

I am not. I am in fact very below average in the gaming scene for reaction time. You are making claims without any backup.

The timing that the other posters are showing, where YES it is waiting on a specific reaction to happen, IS very much in line with an ARPG, where you are waiting fro a specific on screen trigger to then push a button.

5 Buttons is nowhere NEAR too much for the average person, and you need to either provide proof, or stop making that absurd claim.

This game is not catering to that experience that you want, nor will it. You might want to find another, and I would feel extremely cheated if they brought that experience here - Hence why D3 is a joke of a game.

[Elhazzared]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย SimplyGnome:

I am not. I am in fact very below average in the gaming scene for reaction time. You are making claims without any backup.

The timing that the other posters are showing, where YES it is waiting on a specific reaction to happen, IS very much in line with an ARPG, where you are waiting fro a specific on screen trigger to then push a button.

5 Buttons is nowhere NEAR too much for the average person, and you need to either provide proof, or stop making that absurd claim.

This game is not catering to that experience that you want, nor will it. You might want to find another, and I would feel extremely cheated if they brought that experience here - Hence why D3 is a joke of a game.

Honestely this is the last time I'll reply to you because I don't feel like wasting any more time with someone who is completly out of sync with reality and doesn't even tries to posit anything towards the discussion other than I don't like your idea.

When you are in a fight, you aren't waiting for a stimuli to use an abillity, you are waiting for a cooldown on top of looking out for stimuli that tells you, get out of this area attack and you need to track this for up to 5 skills (not necessarely 5 since generally there is a utillity there like movement and a non cooldown skill as well). Buit keeping track of everything on screen and the cooldowns and react to all that is happening on screen and the cooldowns that are coming off at different times is not something the average player can do. The only people I see being able to do that are for example the people who constantly are part of the top 10% players of PoE.

If the idea that a game lowering the entry skill bar for players while still retaining all the top end of the difficulty ruins the game for you, then go play PoE. In there you can be part of a game where only the really good people ever get anywhere.

Speaking for myself, I prefer a lower entry level for an ARPG. But here's the funny thing. I like roguelike games too and I like them hard as they are meant to be. At the same I don't mind if a roguelike has a low entry bar as long as it still has a high difficulty ceiling. Either way I get what I want out of it.

You on the other hand seem to only want a game where only a few people is able to play it.As if it was so prestigious that someone can even get to play a certain game. It just doesn't makes sense to me but honestly, I'm not into elitistim anyway.

[Sapient_Pest]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย SimplyGnome:

Hence why D3 is a joke of a game.

Last Epoch's skill design - as far as the in-combat UX is concerned - is very similar to D3. You're not making the point you think you are.

[Azazel]

please provide a source for your 1 in 10 'fact'

[webmetalreese]

I really need to play this more as now I'm curious as to how it's hard to manage five active skills. Are there really five active skills for the Rogue?
I played WoW for many years and I think I had around 3 different action bars - granted it was click the UI, but still.
If you play with a stick then it's pretty easy enough since your triggers and bumpers do most of the work. Maybe try a stick and see if it's better?

[Azazel]

and please, before you jump down my throat like you did our lil gnome friend above, i genuinely am trying to comprehend where you are coming from. you make blanket general statements, your topics don't feel in alignment, and you say to anyone who disagrees that they are not adding to the discussion, while you seem to tell everyone who disagrees that they are wrong. So my asking, is honestly to try to save you some face. Did you read an article? Is this how your real life, or gaming friends feel? i am curious and would love a source, because if 9 out of 10 feel like this is too much, why are you 1, and we are 15? also please don't respond to people engaging in this discussion as being out of reality, when many of us are trying hard to comprehend where you are coming from yourself.

[webmetalreese]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Lunacorn:

and please, before you jump down my throat like you did our lil gnome friend above, i genuinely am trying to comprehend where you are coming from. you make blanket general statements, your topics don't feel in alignment, and you say to anyone who disagrees that they are not adding to the discussion, while you seem to tell everyone who disagrees that they are wrong. So my asking, is honestly to try to save you some face. Did you read an article? Is this how your real life, or gaming friends feel? i am curious and would love a source, because if 9 out of 10 feel like this is too much, why are you 1, and we are 15? also please don't respond to people engaging in this discussion as being out of reality, when many of us are trying hard to comprehend where you are coming from yourself.

Ooof, I had to re-read the entire thread again and honestly I still don't understand what is trying to happen here.
TL2/3 has 10 action slots, Grim Dawn, Van Helsing, Warhammer Chaosbane, even Wolcen - all have an action bar.
ARPG's have always been about the cycling of your abilities and waiting for Cooldowns. I ran Nec on D3 for IDK 5 seasons and it was alll about the cooldowns to just destroy everything, spent half my build bringing timers down.
Even adding Auras - You still need to have those skills in place. I would find the game ultimately boring if I only had 2 skills to actively use while the rest were procs and/or passives.

[LazyWitch]

no its bad

[Elhazzared]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Lunacorn:

and please, before you jump down my throat like you did our lil gnome friend above, i genuinely am trying to comprehend where you are coming from. you make blanket general statements, your topics don't feel in alignment, and you say to anyone who disagrees that they are not adding to the discussion, while you seem to tell everyone who disagrees that they are wrong. So my asking, is honestly to try to save you some face. Did you read an article? Is this how your real life, or gaming friends feel? i am curious and would love a source, because if 9 out of 10 feel like this is too much, why are you 1, and we are 15? also please don't respond to people engaging in this discussion as being out of reality, when many of us are trying hard to comprehend where you are coming from yourself.

It's not jumping down on your throat or anyone in particular. But it is very frustating to have to keep saying the same thing and just being ignored because someone thinks their experience is different and if they can do something, everyone can which is blatantly wrong.

I am going to mostly reference PoE here because it's the easier referencing factor.

First off, starting with both me and my friends who play (or played, they got tired just like I did of PoE). We could do most content before the changes and not a single one of us can use more than 3 skills at the same time. Flask management? Forget it entirely, at best we may remember to bash the keys and whatever flasks it hits is what whatever we get. I could manage 4 skills because I often played totems, so puting down the totems allowed me 16 seconds or so to just use everything else but that was by nature of the main skill being used sporadically.

On top of that if you look at other players, just people who are average and you talk about every now and then they are always keen to try out this new build they saw someone using, but they are gonna tweek it a little to be more their playstyle. The tweeks invariably are remove as many active skills to the point that it's always, main skill, movement skill, curse and substitute skills that for example will add exposure and vaal will be relegated to becoming auras and such. Why? Because clearly they can't handle it. Also if you see these people play as I've often seen them streaming on discord for a group they are part of, you will see no flask management. They will use a healing potion and maybe mash the potion keys in the boss fight if they remember it.

Now who does actually use the multiple 4 or 5 skills consistently and even manage flask management? Always the top 10% of the PoE ladder. The moment you start going bellow the 10%, you start seeing less skills and less flask management. This is not to say that on the top 10% there aren't some that only use 2 or 3 skills. There are! But they at least have the flask management on top of that.

Just use PoE ninja to see top builds from top players, use the site to look at more average players, you know, the ones who can do A8 sirius for example. The evidence is quite clear but a part of it is only visible when you watch average players play.

As for why you have a feeling that I am 1 and you are 15. That is perception bias. If you go through the thread and look at who is in favor and who is against you'll see about 50/50 split on the opinion although there are a few more than 50%, albeit not to the degree you said which can still do it. But the answer is simple.

First you must realise that when someone doesn't likes something about the game, most times they quit the game, they don't even offer feedback. This is actually a problem but considering how elitists often predate on such people, it's no wonder they don't want to fight that war, it's easier to just quit instead of trying to make the game better with feedback.

Second, a lot of people, whether they like or not the game, they just never even go to the boards, they just play it as is, much like the ones who leave without even telling the Devs what was the thing that cause them to leave.

Lastly, the bigger part of the people who remain is the hardcore lovers because the game already has some hardcore elements, even if it's not PoE A8 sirius ridiculous levels. These people often do not accept that someone else can play the game in a simpler way and still have fun. Their own fun somehow diminuishes if someone else that isn't as good can also play because the entry bar is lower. Nevermind the fact that they already play better and can finish 3 maps in the same time the average players finishes 1. Or the fact that this affects in no way the way they enjoy the game.

To expand on this last point again take a look at PoE post ascencion and pre delve. You could have a build that was super cheap and did almost all content. Top players constantly complain everything is trivialised and they kill everything instantly. They stilll played and had fun. Look at post delve and now average players go nowhere. To players still destroy everything easily and complain it's too easy. They still play it. That is to say, nothing done at a low level affects someone at a high level. But it destroys the game for all average players.

[Elhazzared]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย webmetalreese:

Ooof, I had to re-read the entire thread again and honestly I still don't understand what is trying to happen here.
TL2/3 has 10 action slots, Grim Dawn, Van Helsing, Warhammer Chaosbane, even Wolcen - all have an action bar.
ARPG's have always been about the cycling of your abilities and waiting for Cooldowns. I ran Nec on D3 for IDK 5 seasons and it was alll about the cooldowns to just destroy everything, spent half my build bringing timers down.
Even adding Auras - You still need to have those skills in place. I would find the game ultimately boring if I only had 2 skills to actively use while the rest were procs and/or passives.

TL2, always 1 or 2 skills only. TL3 is garbage and I don't want to even look at that heresy.
Grimdawn, 1 or 2 as well.
Vanhelsing, I used 1 skill.
Warhammer chaosbane. That's the mmo wasn't it? I didn't play it but MMORPG is not the same things as an ARPG.
D3 I never played, I refuse to play anything on blizzard.net. That said, D2 I played with a single skill back then.
Wolcen, didn't play it, it's a bad game, I'd never even accept playing with the whole BS of balancing mana and rage. It is just more micromanagement on top, it's absolutly ridiculous.

It is important to note that in many games, more skills doesn't equates to more power. In many games more skills mean more options and people can just forego options for simplicity as it doesn't necessarely means more power. The problem is that in LE more skills means more power because they give bonus and synergies. If you chose not to use one fo your 5 skill slots, you are just losing power and that is the problem here.

Now about the auras. You would not find fun to use 2 skills as opposed to using 5. That is fine. You can still use 5. I never sugested that having auraus should bring the power of the 2 or 3 skills higher than people who use 5. I even sugested that they should only be 80% as powerful even though if they were giving the same level of power to equal out and bring it down to playstyle preference, it wouldn't make a difference since if you can use more skills, you can play better for sure and will still be able to go further than someone using less anyway if that for some reason is important to you, which probably shouldn't. It should only matter that you have fun and you'd still have 5 skills you could use to have fun. Nothing would change for you.

[Azazel]

okay, so by majority... you mean your friends. and you are sourcing experience on poe. so for one, lets stick to statements like "in my experience". because games are bigger than poe and your friends. for two, this thread got a lil out of hand with flying comments... poe has a pretty hostile global chat, so lets not bring that mentality here. three, there are tons of build options in Last Epoch, for example, im pretty much immobile so lots of heavy thinking about skills, and all that is stressful at best. i tend to play minimal bar builds myself. my rogue focuses on crit and flurry with some extra perks in between. my necro lmao uses a 2hd katana and feeds on leeching and minions to bolster damage and maintain health. this is a very flexible game. comparing it to something that has any form of "meta" play feels awkward here. so perhaps reframing your OP and asking for thoughts, or options for build ideas would be more fruitful than how it was framed and dragged on, while even if you offer up an idea like auras or the like, i am not certain devs are going to trudge far through this, nor make much sense out of it. so even if you had a good idea, the way you framed it and approached the discussion shot you in the foot <3

[Elhazzared]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Lunacorn:

okay, so by majority... you mean your friends. and you are sourcing experience on poe. so for one, lets stick to statements like "in my experience". because games are bigger than poe and your friends. for two, this thread got a lil out of hand with flying comments... poe has a pretty hostile global chat, so lets not bring that mentality here. three, there are tons of build options in Last Epoch, for example, im pretty much immobile so lots of heavy thinking about skills, and all that is stressful at best. i tend to play minimal bar builds myself. my rogue focuses on crit and flurry with some extra perks in between. my necro lmao uses a 2hd katana and feeds on leeching and minions to bolster damage and maintain health. this is a very flexible game. comparing it to something that has any form of "meta" play feels awkward here. so perhaps reframing your OP and asking for thoughts, or options for build ideas would be more fruitful than how it was framed and dragged on, while even if you offer up an idea like auras or the like, i am not certain devs are going to trudge far through this, nor make much sense out of it. so even if you had a good idea, the way you framed it and approached the discussion shot you in the foot <3

Not just my friends. People I don't know but I've had the chance to watch, either on gaming group s on discord (gaming groups sometimes are very big as you are aware and you probably know know a very small amount of people there). Even people who stream but are on the lower end of stream viewers are many times average players, not always but a lot of times they are.

The experience I am sourcing but it's directly translatable as it's the idea of consistently using multiple skills.

For the necro, I'm sure it's fine, as I'm said, that's about the only thing I can play properly. For your rogue, are you telling me you are not using the 5 skills. Flurry can lower it to 4 by comboing with multishot but you should still have 5 skills leveling out of which, 4 are active I assume. If you aren't you'd be losing some major DPS and that means your build would be much less capable than one which has 5 active skills. In fact even if you are using flurry+multishot you are already losing a little bit of power cause it's not as powerful as 5 straight up actives, but it's a minor loss and that is ok. This is my idea for auras, which I'm calling it auras for the sake of it since everyone goes on that, They could be curses that work in an area around you, they could be triggers like flurry+multishot, they could togglable skills. There are many possibilities and the fact they added flurry with multishot is to me an indicator that they are open to ways or reducing the action bar at a small loss of power for those who want it.

I will agree it may have been framed wrong, not because I believe to be incorrect, I've seen plenty of evidence to know that I am correct on my assersions, but probably because I even gave a way for people to derrail the whole thing because they simply don't know any better.

[Azazel]

... >.> ill just accept that as you learned something from this.

[webmetalreese]

TL2, always 1 or 2 skills only. TL3 is garbage and I don't want to even look at that heresy.
Grimdawn, 1 or 2 as well.
Vanhelsing, I used 1 skill.
Warhammer chaosbane. That's the mmo wasn't it? I didn't play it but MMORPG is not the same things as an ARPG.
D3 I never played, I refuse to play anything on blizzard.net. That said, D2 I played with a single skill back then.
Wolcen, didn't play it, it's a bad game, I'd never even accept playing with the whole BS of balancing mana and rage. It is just more micromanagement on top, it's absolutly ridiculous.

Idk how you play ARPG's then tbh. TL2 running an engineer build I have at least 4 active skills going on all the time. Grimdawn (been awhile) but sure, attack and spell on mouse clicks, but at least 2-3 in the slot. VanHelsing (been a LONG while hehe, most of my points went into buffing familiar, so ok I can get behind using 1 skill)
Chaosbane is the tragic story of WK gone ARPG, but even that game at least 4 skills regardless of class.
D3 is just an example, but D2 how is running with one skill even possible?
Wolcen IS a bad game - 100% agree but even it uses more than 2 active skills.

It is important to note that in many games, more skills doesn't equates to more power. In many games more skills mean more options and people can just forego options for simplicity as it doesn't necessarely means more power. The problem is that in LE more skills means more power because they give bonus and synergies. If you chose not to use one fo your 5 skill slots, you are just losing power and that is the problem here.

I see where you are coming from here, to me skills never meant more power - just more variety. I'm not opposing the idea of passives, I'm really curious as to how you can play an ARPG with just 1-2 skills and still be satisfied tbh. I mean, if I went back to Gauntlet I could say sure, but variety and the many choices make games like this all the more interesting to play. I still say try it out with a controller and see if it doesn't help having to maintain.