A fault I found with most character classes

[Elhazzared]

So far I am having a lot of fun with game. In no small part because the necromancer is pretty good. However after the Rogue was released and I gave it a go because, why not I realised a couple things. First is that I didn't saw any skill that I was particularly in love with because of either one limitation or another, but the second and biggest problem which flows around all classes is. It had no passive abillities.

As you know, in most ARPG there are skills which are active and skills which are passive just there to provide some powerful bonus without the requirement of having high levels of APM.

So while I started with the necromancer which for me is basically spam wraith and have the other permanent minions with the ocasional movement skill use as a secondary active (because permanent minions are hardly what I consider active), I quickly realise, I cannot play anything else.

Honestly speaking, I can deal with 2 active skills, maybe 3 at most if the third is something I'd use on rare ocasions like a buff or a debuff cast on a boss fight and probably no more than once or twice.

It would be good to flesh out the skill trees of all characters with some passive skills for the people who can't handle many skills or who simply don't want to be spamming 5 different skills all the time.

[Nikana Drakgoon]

Автор сообщения: Elhazzared

What part did you not understand that I didn't sugest a change? I sugested for something to be ADDED. Not just for Rogue, for all classes. All classes could do with less button mash.

I don't mind the button mash its just you mate.

[Elhazzared]

Yes, all the other people in support of this are all just me with my multiple steam accounts...

Besides, what is the problem for you. You like button mash, play your button mash build, nothing will change for worse for you, it just adds the option for those who don't want to button mash to not have to.

It literally does not affect you in any way so whjy do you have to be against something that only makes the game better for more people?

[TitanDeath]

Автор сообщения: Elhazzared

It literally does not affect you in any way so whjy do you have to be against something that only makes the game better for more people?

Actually, it would affect us. Let's say for example they add one Aura skill to every character (Lich already has one). Do you know how much balancing hell they would have to go through to make Aura's play nice with each other? They would have to think about how they interact with all of their current skills, and then they would have to balance it around multiplayer. Make them too strong and everyone and their mothers would take an Aura skill 100% of the time due to the simple fact that having 100% uptime on an DPS increase is better than an active skill. But let's say they do make them 20% weaker than active skills. Single player is one story, but in Multiplayer it's different. You get the PoE issue where people spec only Aura bots with a completely uninteresting gameplay and having 4 DPS auras is better than an active skill, even if it's weaker. There's a reason why PoE has been slowly gravitating to a more active playstyle and that's why Aura Mana Reservation, Immortal Call, and Cast on Damage Taken, was severely nerfed. It was too strong and difficult to balance.

Let's say they add something else instead of Auras because of how hard they are to balance in multiplayer. What would they even add? The current skills have so many interactions within themselves already. Taking Rogue as an example, adding a passive Shadow generator would be very difficult to balance on top of having a boring skill tree. Even if it was weaker than Synchronized Strike, most people would feel obligated to take a skill like that. Why would I want to spend 80 mana to use Synchronized Strike when I can just simply take the passive Shadow generator. Now I don't have to worry about making up for the mana cost and just increase my DPS instead.

That's the issue with passive skills. They reward you for doing literally nothing.

[spectre199]

No thank you, I do not want them to dumb down the game because the OP is having problems.

[Sapient_Pest]

As someone who has played tons of ARPGs, and at a performance level I'd wager is well above average at least, I too do not like piano-key combat. I like focusing on what's happening in-game, and for my every button press to have noticeable impact.

The more abilities you have to keep firing off, the more incentive one has to just randomly mash buttons so you're using abilities as they come off CD. If I'm just endlessly cycling between a few moves, seeking to fire them off as soon as possible, I am completely detached from what my character is doing, because to play optimally I WILL be putting in inputs that do nothing, and as a result my input -> output feedback disappears.

ARPGs are at their best when you're managing your resources, not multiple timers. A few "oh ♥♥♥♥" or utility skills on CDs is perfectly fine, but when your output becomes rotational, that's when we're getting into bad design territory. I mean, even MMOs, the conservative sloths of combat-design, have been moving away from this sort of interaction for a while now, and it's for a reason.

Also, interesting to hear people who are pro-piano combat cite PoE as being hardcore, because, at least for quite a few years, most end-game meta builds revolved around passive auras. The builds only had one or two forms of output by design. So it's somehow both hardcore AND overly simple. Dissonance.

Here's the posit: ARPG combat is, intrinsically, extremely simple. The only major difference between piano-key rotational and build-and-burst design is the level of feedback each provides, with there actually only being the most minor of differences made on lowering the skill-floor. The big performance differences in ARPGs are: knowing how and where to position, knowing when to disengage, knowing how to control an encounter, and knowing how to gear / build your character.
And with that said, I do not believe that the slightly lower floor piano-key combat design brings is worth the trade-off of losing input -> output viscerality.


With that said, Last Epoch isn't THAT bad when it comes to forcing piano-builds down your throat. At least from my personal experience. Almost every class has a one-or-two button build friendly approach from what I've theorized.

[Elhazzared]

Автор сообщения: TitanDeath

Actually, it would affect us. Let's say for example they add one Aura skill to every character (Lich already has one). Do you know how much balancing hell they would have to go through to make Aura's play nice with each other? They would have to think about how they interact with all of their current skills, and then they would have to balance it around multiplayer. Make them too strong and everyone and their mothers would take an Aura skill 100% of the time due to the simple fact that having 100% uptime on an DPS increase is better than an active skill. But let's say they do make them 20% weaker than active skills. Single player is one story, but in Multiplayer it's different. You get the PoE issue where people spec only Aura bots with a completely uninteresting gameplay and having 4 DPS auras is better than an active skill, even if it's weaker. There's a reason why PoE has been slowly gravitating to a more active playstyle and that's why Aura Mana Reservation, Immortal Call, and Cast on Damage Taken, was severely nerfed. It was too strong and difficult to balance.

Let's say they add something else instead of Auras because of how hard they are to balance in multiplayer. What would they even add? The current skills have so many interactions within themselves already. Taking Rogue as an example, adding a passive Shadow generator would be very difficult to balance on top of having a boring skill tree. Even if it was weaker than Synchronized Strike, most people would feel obligated to take a skill like that. Why would I want to spend 80 mana to use Synchronized Strike when I can just simply take the passive Shadow generator. Now I don't have to worry about making up for the mana cost and just increase my DPS instead.

That's the issue with passive skills. They reward you for doing literally nothing.

Alright, this is actually a good approuch at trying to debate the matter. Let's see here.

Auras will require a lot of balancing so that interaction with eachother doesn't creates a completly unbalanced form of play that trivialises everything. This is a fair point, but the balancing needs not be on the current skill side but rather the aura side so that it works. That is to say, nothing has to change for you who prefers to have 5 different active skills for example.

As for these becoming even stronger in multiplayer. This isn't actually an issue because there are 2 things to take into consideration here. First is that when you go multiplayer, the content dificulty scales. On top of that while a bonus loot is awarded, from my experience loot doesn't just doubles of triples, it gets a bonus but overall there is less loot per player. This is already something that does not incentives players to play together. Let's look then at the pro's, you tackle content a little bit more easy and have fun with friends. So you lose on one side but gain on another. It's actually pretty sensible. But let's add a last little bit and this reguards skill too. If you want to stack auras, as long as the Devs don't allow them to be insanely big, then keeping both players inside eachother auras is going to be part of the skilled play which is rewarded by increasing their damage output.

Now going over your example of a rogue passive shadow generation. You gave an example of a porly designed passive, obviously even I agree with you, that's not a good thing. But is that the only thing they can do? How about a skill that has a toggle between 2 forms. One gives bonus to generate shadows from other skills easier although you still have to use them to generate the shadows, you just generate more and possibly a buff to them throwing poison vials. Where on the other side of the toggle it would give you a percentage change to create a dummy to divert attacks away from you and give you some glancing blow chance.

Also notice how that was not even an aura. Remember that it doesn't have to all be auras, although adding some auras too will be beneficial for the game.

On your last point, Button mashing to win is not rewarding good play, it's just increasing the entry skill cap. Rewarding for doing nothing is if a player has a build where he just walks and does nothing and simply collects loot. Even the necromancer who could come closer to that can't exactly do that.

[TitanDeath]

Автор сообщения: Elhazzared

As for these becoming even stronger in multiplayer. This isn't actually an issue because there are 2 things to take into consideration here. First is that when you go multiplayer, the content dificulty scales. On top of that while a bonus loot is awarded, from my experience loot doesn't just doubles of triples, it gets a bonus but overall there is less loot per player. This is already something that does not incentives players to play together. Let's look then at the pro's, you tackle content a little bit more easy and have fun with friends. So you lose on one side but gain on another. It's actually pretty sensible. But let's add a last little bit and this reguards skill too. If you want to stack auras, as long as the Devs don't allow them to be insanely big, then keeping both players inside eachother auras is going to be part of the skilled play which is rewarded by increasing their damage output.

Now going over your example of a rogue passive shadow generation. You gave an example of a porly designed passive, obviously even I agree with you, that's not a good thing. But is that the only thing they can do? How about a skill that has a toggle between 2 forms. One gives bonus to generate shadows from other skills easier although you still have to use them to generate the shadows, you just generate more and possibly a buff to them throwing poison vials. Where on the other side of the toggle it would give you a percentage change to create a dummy to divert attacks away from you and give you some glancing blow chance.

On your last point, Button mashing to win is not rewarding good play, it's just increasing the entry skill cap. Rewarding for doing nothing is if a player has a build where he just walks and does nothing and simply collects loot. Even the necromancer who could come closer to that can't exactly do that.

You bring up some fair points, I wouldn't mind supporting Toggles or Auras as long as they could balance it (which may take quite a while as they haven't even finished all of the classes yet). I still don't like the idea of a completely passive skill where a button press does nothing. Toggles I'd be okay with because you have the choice to leave them on auto pilot or press the key when needed. Aura of Decay is similar where you have to press to key to not die when buffs or healing wear off.

I don't know what builds you're playing where you have to button mash, but the two builds I made don't button mash at all. In fact, I would agree with you that button mashing doesn't reward good play. I very well could button mash with my builds, but it would start not performing well and run into issues.

[Creep Gnome]

Автор сообщения: Elhazzared

If you want to stack auras, as long as the Devs don't allow them to be insanely big, then keeping both players inside eachother auras is going to be part of the skilled play which is rewarded by increasing their damage output.

So, staying near your partner to keep their aura buff is skillful play that deserves to be rewarded, but managing 5 active skills results in unskilled button mashing? You see the problems in your reasoning here, right?

[Azazel]

Автор сообщения: BlackFlame1981

A slow old guy like me can play this game without problems.

...cripple here , cant even use a mouse... and this is silly. i use a controller, and the small 5 skill map is plenty, and usable. im not sure why this person is asking them to give them passives, when there are plenty like someone said, 'p' key... and if 5 buttons is too much, how did you play "ANY" mmorpg. there are totes ways to do 2 button builds, yet please don't request that they break a great game with tons of viable builds per class, giving several role options for each... can't brain words well, yet i too throw my cup of choco milk all and flip the table at this OP.

[Elhazzared]

Автор сообщения: TitanDeath

You bring up some fair points, I wouldn't mind supporting Toggles or Auras as long as they could balance it (which may take quite a while as they haven't even finished all of the classes yet). I still don't like the idea of a completely passive skill where a button press does nothing. Toggles I'd be okay with because you have the choice to leave them on auto pilot or press the key when needed. Aura of Decay is similar where you have to press to key to not die when buffs or healing wear off.

I don't know what builds you're playing where you have to button mash, but the two builds I made don't button mash at all. In fact, I would agree with you that button mashing doesn't reward good play. I very well could button mash with my builds, but it would start not performing well and run into issues.

Right now, the only thing I'm playing seriously is necromancer because all I ahve to do is spawm more wraiths and ocasionally teleport to buff my minions... In the big boss fights I have to resummon my minions on ocasion and that clearly makes me suffer on the required concentration that i need to avoid dying but it kinda works outs. Perhaps once the build is more powerful and I have decent gear I can have minions that last a boss fight... That is the hope anyway.

Other things, I took a look at several things. Tried totems, abismally low damage. I know they can get ok, but that's at high level with good gear, the crawl up there is not fun. I tried Rogue a couple times but there is just no way to run away from button mash. Ignored warrior cause I don't like melee and gave a look at mage but was even worse than rogue for button mash since rogue at least can have multishot incorporated into flurry but that's still only 1 skill save.

Автор сообщения: Creep Gnome

So, staying near your partner to keep their aura buff is skillful play that deserves to be rewarded, but managing 5 active skills results in unskilled button mashing? You see the problems in your reasoning here, right?

Button mashing is unskilled and unfun, it's just having your fingers over a gey grouping and pressing it all at the same time repeatdly as fast as you can to keep casting whatever if it comes out of cooldown, but it's not fun, it's not skilled, it's also the only way for most people to deal with that many skills at the same time. Now yes, there are people who can do it without button mashing, more like the PoE piano style. It's still unfun as all hell, but the number of people who can actually do this right is small.

Add to that the the whole idea of auras and skilled play is the idea of rightful positioning and the idea that players need to know to run always todards the same place. What will more often happen is that each player will run towards whatever spot they think better and then resume attacking, probably leaving them out of eachother auras. Exception to melee character but then again they suffer all the issues of melee characters.

Автор сообщения: Lunacorn

Автор сообщения: BlackFlame1981

A slow old guy like me can play this game without problems.

...cripple here , cant even use a mouse... and this is silly. i use a controller, and the small 5 skill map is plenty, and usable. im not sure why this person is asking them to give them passives, when there are plenty like someone said, 'p' key... and if 5 buttons is too much, how did you play "ANY" mmorpg. there are totes ways to do 2 button builds, yet please don't request that they break a great game with tons of viable builds per class, giving several role options for each... can't brain words well, yet i too throw my cup of choco milk all and flip the table at this OP.

5 active skills on top of having to pay attention to cooldowns and the action going on is definitly too much for the majority of people.

As for MMORPGs, yeah I don't play them. I played TOR at one point. I was a healer, rarely had to move, used a grand total of 3 skills, Heal, Area heal, DPS if no one needs healing. Also din't use keybidings for that, I just clicked on the skill bar on the screen because tab targeting. Yet there is a reason that kind of games are dead except for WoW.

[Azazel]

when you say 'the majority of people' i tend to wanna boop you on the nose. Given all the games out there, no it is not the majority, though i do feel bad you cannot find this game enjoyable

[Elhazzared]

Автор сообщения: Lunacorn

when you say 'the majority of people' i tend to wanna boop you on the nose. Given all the games out there, no it is not the majority, though i do feel bad you cannot find this game enjoyable

You can think it's wrong of me to say it. But considering that people of average skill are going to be the majority in any given game. It's not incorrect when I say the majority.

And I do find the game enjoyable, albeit only with necromancer as it is. It would be great if it could be enjoyable with all classes.

[spectre199]

I call false that you say majority of people OP, more like those that are in the minority are having problems.

[Elhazzared]

Автор сообщения: spectre199

I call false that you say majority of people OP, more like those that are in the minority are having problems.

You are wrong then. Again the majority of people can't handle several active skills on top of all that is going on the screen safe from button mashing which still leads to a much more unproductive result because you may be timing things wrong or just missing with certain abillities because of the way they are meant to be used.

[SimplyGnome]

Автор сообщения: Elhazzared

A passive tree and passive skills aren't the same thing. Most ARPGs have it and no, this wouldn't change the game, it would ADD to the game.

Here's a little information for you. Do you know who can handle 5 skill at the same time in an ARPG? It's people who have well above average reflexes and people who can use a keyboard without looking at it at all which in case you failed to guess, it's not most people either.

1 out of 10 people are able to do this as it is right now which is why most ARPGs developers realise that giving passive skills that are about 80% as powerful as having an active abillity there is a good compromise for all the people who are not capable of handling that many active skills at the same time.

So spare me the elitism. This is a game, it's not even a competitive game while we're on the subject.

What do you think it's better for the long term? People playing for a while and quiting because the developers didn't account for the fact that not everyone is a pro level gamer because it's literally impossible for most people to be? Or is it better to have people stick for much longer because the developers remembered to add an option that while not as good still allows people to play and have fun while not feeling completly underpowered?

I think it's very clear which one is better for the long term health of the game, especially considering that just by adding this game will become better than PoE.

Only 1 in 10 can handle FIVE BUTTONS in an ARPG? Sir. No.
I used to handle 40 in a much faster paced mmorpg, in pvp, and I am not a good twitch-skill gamer.

Your facts here are RIDICULOUS, not sourced, and Im actually afraid you might believe yourself.