Anyone been able to force a civ to change their ideology?

[Krovven]

I've been trying to do "Tear Down this Wall!" Force an AI player with Order ideology to switch to Freedom.

At one point the civ was -24 (Civil Resistance) Public Opinion, which supposedly anything over -20 should start to force Civs cities to leave and join me and force an ideology change. After waiting probably 50 turns or more, nothing happened. The civ kept declaring war on me, so I just captured all their cities except one coastal city. I dropped 2 Great General forts, claiming all their land. Leaving them with only sea tiles.

Now over 100 turns has gone by with -4 (Revolutionary Wave) Public Opinion and still nothing.

1413 Tourism output by me, 111513 tourism pressure and 43347 Culture pressure on the civ. 257% Influence over them as well. How the hell can you get them to convert if this kind of pressure doesnt do it?

[Myst]

Did you set the World Ideology to Freedom through the world congress?

[Krovven]

Yes, has been since the first opportunity it was available and has never changed. I won the game 100+ turns ago on a Diplomatic victory. 257% Cultural Influence is 2.5x more than is needed for Cultural Victory.

[Burbot]

I have 'Tear Down this Wall" and have had civs flip in other games as well.

It can take a very long time for them to flip. Bismarck was pretty stubborn one game and never did flip.

Tourism has no factor on ideology AFAIK. The opposite is true, shared ideology increases tourism. My understanding is that Ideology pressure is based strictly on happiness. You may have made it impossible for them to switch by crushing them down to one city. A few buildings will give them the happiness they need to avoid a forced switch.

[Mazey]

Originally posted by Thanter:

Tourism has no factor on ideology AFAIK.

It definitely does. The more tourism you have into a civ of a different ideology the more pressure you put upon them. That, in turn, affects their happiness.

[NIGHTWOLF199]

usually to flip an ideology of another civ they need to be very unhappy with their current one plus I have found it also happens a lot more when other civs within the game are following the same ideology as you. Also I have found an ideology flip happens more frequently when you haven't gone into war so much with the civ you are trying to flip. This is simply what I have found flips ideologies more frequently in my games. I think there may be other factors rather than simply just culture output to determine this. I do have the achievement you are talking about also. It may be worth trying to get it on a new game.

[Krovven]

As Mazey said, Tourism (offense) and Culture (defense) are what determine your Ideological pressure upon other Civs.

Do civs need to have a negative Happiness as well as negative Public Opinion to convert? Do civs need to be Friendly to convert? I'm pretty sure when I had the civ at -24 Public Opinion they were Friendly with me, and they didn't convert then either.

[NIGHTWOLF199]

Whenever a flip in ideology in my games has happened which it has on several occasions now the civ involved has always been unhappy whilst in negative public opinion. Also I have turned civs ideologies when they haven't been friendly with me.

[Krovven]

Based on what is here http://well-of-souls.com/civ/civ5_bravenewworld.html under Public Opinion, from a couple of of the Devs...

"Dennis Shirk: "If I choose say, Order, and you’re Freedom, and I’m generating all this Tourism, my influence is going to start pressing on your empire and your people are going to start getting unhappy. If you let it go on too long, you basically have to either declare war on me or switch to my ideology. Your cities might start flipping to my civilization if they riot too much."

Kate Distler: "When your happiness gets down to -20, then your Cities will start abandoning your empire. If your people are this unhappy, they will have a Preferred Ideology they’d like to switch to. We look at all your cities to see how close they are to the capital cities of the civs following that Ideology (and how much pressure you are receiving from each of those civ’s cultures). Based on those factors we can pick the city that will flip (and which civ it will defect to).""

I had over -20 before and the civ had a higher public opinion rating than I have with them now. I presume -20 was an example based on how many cities they have, etc. I have them on a lower public opinion rating right now, but they have only 1 city. That public opinion unhappiness states it's based on # of cities and population.

I just don't get it, because I did it the one way first when they had a large # of cities and population. When that didnt work I dominated them and just boosted my Tourism and Culture heavilly...and still it's not working.

[Witchy 🏳️‍🌈]

Got Arabia to change once but they didn't have much choice. I was forcing tourism on them so hard they were having rebel units rising up and attacking cities from what I could see and I had three defensive pacts protecting me from a declaration of war. Plus every other civ that had an ideology had followed me to Order and left him the only one with Freedom so he was going to be fighting a losing battle if he tried to hold out. Not actually had a city secede from an enemy Civ though, Arabia converted to Order pretty quickly, probably too much so for it to have time to flip a city.

[Burbot]

I was wrong, since tourism moves public opinion which generates unhappiness, it does have an indirect impact. I don't think it's as much an impact that people seem to think though, and it's definitly not direct. Once they are in revolutionary state, tourism has done all it will.

The AI flipped have been large expansive civs that could not manage their happiness effectively. By reducing them to one city you made their happiness easy to manage and it's unlikely they will be forced to flip.

Negative happiness from public opinion is not enough. It's their overall happiness that matters. Cities will not revolt and leave the empire until -20 global happiness. I imagine the AI need to get to that point before they decide to flip. I'll monitor it closer next time to see when they make the decision.

[Steven]

Quite a few changed theirs. 4 CIvs had the "Order" ideology and I was "Freedom". I made it the world ideology and blasted them with tourism. All of them ended up changing at some point.

[Apheirox]

They way tourism/pressure works is it's the level of influence you have over another civ that determines the level of ideological pressure. If you are 'popular' with another civ while they are 'exotic' with you, you have two levels above them (unknown - exotic - familiar - popular) and so put +2 pressure on them. This gets summed for all the civs - you can see the breakdown on the 'culture victory' tab of the culture overview. When the level of pressure towards other ideologies outweigh their pressure towards their chosen ideology, they will experience discontent. So yes, generating tourism (and culture, for defense) is very important for your ideology.

I've yet to see another civ flip from culture, and like OP I've seen situations where a civ was under a LOT of pressure and still didn't flip. I think the explanation, however, is that even with all this pressure, it still wouldn't be worthwhile switching ideology because it causes one to lose all the current benefits of chosen ideologies. If my civ was in a state of 'revolutionary wave' but I'm playing as Order and have chosen tenets that give me happiness from both monuments, workshop, factories and nuclear plants then it might in fact not give me that much extra happiness switching since I would lose all these benefits doing so. Also, there's two turns of anarchy from switching which is another significant penalty. But ultimately, as we all know the Civ 5 AI isn't exactly genius so you can't expect it to always do what would be best for it anyhow.

[xRussianV0dka]

It didn't convert because the empire still had happiness.Once the empire has -20 happiness then they leave the empire.The capital city can't.Veice was in a revolutionary wave once and for some reason had no puppets so I had to manually take Veice over and it was harder then I thought.The leader won't start converting I saw unless they are alone completely in the world.

[Barthold]

Sounds like an nice achievement to achieve though.

[billy]

it happens naturally going for culture wins for me , as you get a lot of tourism they seem to always switch eventually , seems to happen reasonably quick once it starts as they get huge amounts of unhappiness.

2 games ive played everyone had the same one at the end. One civ held on with -47 happines as they must have had a lot of happiness as there golabal was only about -7 , eventually they switched , they hung on for about 50 turns longer than anyone else.

It's like a domino effect once it starts.