SUGGESTION: A huge void in the Western Turn-based Strategy genre only Firaxis can fill

[atlantean]

First off I wish to say that Civ V has become my most-played game on Steam the past couple of years, with several hundred hours logged and still most of the leaders I haven't yet gotten around to trying. The game is a massive time sink in the best possible way and in my humble opinion has taken the Civ concept about as far mechanically, visually, and aurally as possible (though I'd love to be proven wrong). It's easily my favorite game on Steam. Beyond Earth is also very good but just lacks the distinct cultural, historical, and personality level of Civ V. But the overall Civilization concept is the best in the genre, hands down.

Before I first delved into Civ V though, my experience with TBS games were limited to hex-based war games, and I spent countless hundreds of hours alone and with friends playing a series of games that is largely unknown outside of Japan: the Daisenryaku (Grand Strategy) franchise made by SystemSoft Alpha. It's a grand scale, hex-based tactical military simulator focusing on either World War II or the Modern era depending on the entry; its only English localizations to date have been Iron Storm for the Sega Saturn and Daisenryaku VII: Modern Military Tactics Exceed for the PlayStation 2/XBox. The latter game was overlooked or critically panned by the Western gaming media for what (on the surface) are simplistic visuals and a single-player campaign that's dry as a bone. Ah, but the MULTIPLAYER....after I introduced the PS2 version of DSVII to a group of buddies we never played another game again for countless sessions spanning several hundred hours of game time despite brand new PS3 and XBox 360 multiplayer titles laying around. Some of my friends admitted they went home (often after 3 or 4 in the morning after 8 to 10 hour sessions) and dreamed they were still playing and strategizing; the thing was videogame crack. Even if someone missed a session we could fill a slot with an AI-controlled faction...although we stopped doing that because it simply couldn't provide a challenge.

The premise seems simple compared to Civilization, but it's all that's needed. You have various facility types (Capital, City/Army Base, Factory, Airport/Air Base, Port, Naval Base, etc.) with which you draw income and manufacture new units or repair damaged ones. Capturing (or in certain versions destroying) an enemy facility adds its resources to your own and deprives your opponent of it, and the ultimate goal is to capture the other players' Capitals. The carnage and attrition often mean that finances decide the outcome of a match (Pro Tip: to beat America, whose modern-era units are hands down the best in about every category but also the most expensive, focus on damaging/destroying their most expensive/difficult to replace stuff).

How did a seemingly average-looking game consume so much time and attention from a bunch of longtime, well-rounded gamers? Because of algorithmic attention to detail and encyclopedic comprehensiveness that rival Civilization's levels of micromanagement and historical detail. Here's a brief rundown of some of the Daisenryaku series' features:

A) An encyclopedic list of real life units; these games are like playing a military reference book where you can pit practically anything against another with realistic outcomes. All unit types are represented: fighters, bombers, transport, refueling, and surrveillance/recon aircraft, helicopters (attack and transport), tanks, tank destroyers, personnel transports, fixed and self-propelled artillery and rocket/missile launchers, infantry (various types and specialties from regular grunts to paratroopers to engineers to Special Forces/Commandos), , supply vehicles, hovercraft, battleships, destroyers, corvettes, frigates, littoral vessels, transport ships and assault ships, submarines, supply ships, ballistic and cruise missiles...and anything else I may have forgotten to list here.

DS VII: Over 400 units from 8 nations: USA, Russia, UK, Germany, Israel, France, China, Japan

Iron Storm: Roughly 500 units across three complete campaigns: USA, Japan, and Germany (these include other countries' units such as the UK, Soviet Union, and France).

Advanced Wars 2001 (Sega Dreamcast): Over 2100 units and variants from a bunch of World war II participants. This entry is still easily the best-looking game visually in the franchise, with battle cinematics that hold up well even now.

Daisenryaku Perfect 3.0 (Japanese Windows PC): Over 1400 modern-era units from 48 default countries (more can be added via intuitive in-game Editors).

B) Awesome Editors (Modern-era versions only): DS VII offers an endless supply of experimentation (1 vs. 1, three and 4-player either allied or free for all) via a great map maker where you can assemble 64 X 64 hex maps of any type for play. The hexes are simple geometry but the way the land stands above the water, bridges span visually over water, and peaks loom over the rest of the map combined with the single-color, simple geometry (but still easily recognizable) units (including helicopters with rotating blades) gives the maps a distinctive tabletop gaming aesthetic that really grows on you. You can even zoom in/out and rotate the map to see everything from every angle (handy when units might be hidden under a bridge or behind a peak). And due to the 3D nature of the maps, you could visually "stack" multiple units on the same hex, from submarines right up to High Air (helicopters occupy Low Air).

DSP 3.0 takes the Editors concept and basically hands users an in-game modding kit. As I mentioned earlier there are the unit and nation Editors/Creators. There is also a Map Editor with lots more terrain types (albeit top down view only) and up to 256 X 256 hexes (suffice to say they're HUGE). There's a Rules Editor with 50 different rule types (arranged by category) with which you can create matches to your specific needs/tastes).

Advanced War 2001: It has a 60 X 60 hex Map Editor where you can play with up to 8 players in any combination of Axis or Allied (no free for all, though). Want to see whether America's underpowered Shermans could take on Russia's T-34s? Whether a Zero could beat Messerschmidts? You can with this game...and you can even set the match to switch alliances at set points mid-game. While top-down view only, a neat thing about it is that you can raise/lower the topgraphy visually in the Editor to give a distinct look to the map surface (enhanced by the forests, jungles, bocage, etc. that add a further 3D effect).

C) Battle cinematics: Where the Daisenryaku franchise differentiates itself from titles like Panzer General is in the way the game utilizes cinematic cutscenes of units (typically groups of 10 each at maximum health with the exception of large units like ships and occasionally bombers) going at it. DS VII's side-view, simple animations happen in windows and thus save the time the other games take between loading these sequences, so it's a give/take there. DSP 3.0 also uses 2D side view windows (presumably since they lend themselves to the Editors, which can employ Photoshop-created bitmaps), but the effects and music are far nicer, more culturally distinctive, and less repetitive. Iron Storm was on a first-generation polygonal console so its cinematics have slow load times, but it's still cool to see those 88s tear up Allied aircraft, tanks, or whatever else comes their way in real time. Advanced War 2001 easily has the best-looking cinematics, with beautiful, detailed units with painstaking attention to markings, rivets, and more. The cinematics also reflect the terrain being fought on, from the sea to an urban setting to a desert.

D) Weather effects (WWII era titles only): Both Iron Storm and Advanced War 2001 reflect certain realities that modern-era militaries have largely overcome via technological advances: just how hugely weather could affect combat and logistics. In both games, any rain or snow automatically prevents aircraft from taking off or landing safely, nor can they target anything on the land or sea. Sandstorms prevent visibility and bring a near-halt to hostilities. The first day of snow or torrential rain might not affect your troop movements too much, but after two or three days it can bring everything to a crawl (even cooler is how the snow actually accumulates over multiple days in the battle cinematics, which show the weather as well as the environments being fought in).

E) Unit-level customization for mission parameters (Modern era only): Weapons packages based upon the needs of your situation allow for tonce of micromanagement joy in Daisenryaku. Do you fit your stealthy Raptor with that one bomb or give it those additional anti-air missiles? Do you want your Ticonderoga-class to carry more cruise missiles or some extra anti-air to protect itself and your fleet? Sure, Hellfire missiles will give your Black Hawk more punch but if you're wanting to get troops to the front faster you may want to opt for only machine-guns, which will give it about 1-2 more hexes of movement per turn. And since the weaponry and units vary hugely between each nation, the learning curve is never-ending (but oh-so-rewarding).

F) Advanced tactical concepts such as flanking, Zone of Control, Fog of War/Intercept: Actually this is the bane of a Russia or China player's existence in DSVII, sadly, as for some inexplicable reason SystemSoft Alpha omitted their S-300s and naval vessels' ability to automatically intercept and shoot down incoming enemy aircraft compared to their AEGIS-equipped US and Japanese equivalents (to be fair, the UK and France got nerfed that way as well). But in DSP 3.0 all of that is fixed and everyone has reason to be careful when flying expensive aircraft over enemy territory. Lastly, Zone of Control means that an enemy can only move a single hex if trying to flank an adjacent enemy. You can use this to devastating advantage in the right terrain and especially on bridges (attack helicopters use ZOC against any ground units that try to pass underneath them).

Flanking gets special mention here, particularly for the WWII-era titles, because it can drastically affect the outcome of a skirmish. Those heavy tank destroyers can only kill your tanks if they're facing the right direction, for instance; hit them from the side or from behind and they're toast since they lack a rotating turret.

Winning any of these games requires careful balancing of unit types. Only Infantry can capture facilities but it's pointless if they can't get to their destination safely and efficiently. Not building anti-air systems means your opponents can just fly right over your territory and drop infantry to capture your facilities. Artillery with a wall of armor in front of it makes for a lethal combination, even more so if you add attack helicopters and ground attack aircraft to the mix.

So why did I write this lengthy post if I've been able to play these games already? Simple: they're either virtually unknown here in the West or have never been localized to begin with. Also, SystemSoft Alpha hasn't advanced the visual side of the series in well over a decade now (some would say the graphics actually regressed in the disappointing DSP HD for PlayStation 3). I can vouch, as can the fortunate few who've also been able to play and enjoy these games, that this series has no close equivalent in the entire western videogame market. Turn-based Strategy is already considered "niche" outside of the PC platform, but the kiss of death (as told to me directly by certain localization devs) for more Daisenryaku titles ever coming here has been the poor visuals. While many if not most of us who love turn-based games don't care as much about eye candy, eye candy is what sells in the West and that in turn is what determines most developers' decisions.

Which is why I'm making this post (yes, I've already tried reaching Firaxis by e-mail). Firaxis has the most visually beautiful hex-based engine in gaming right now, and their own Leader and other cutscenes are equally well done. Just imagining a tactical, grand strategy wargame with Firaxis' label and production values applied to the features I just listed gives me reason to believe such a game would basically print money. Daisenryaku (perhaps spanning multiple eras) with Civilization V-quality maps, the same Editing/Map Creation capabilities as DSP 3.0, and Wargame series visual level battle cinematics would be a new juggernaut on Steam or any platform (Hmm, multiplayer hot seat on that Wii U Game Pad. Sounds like I found a particularly nice use for that thing).

All it would take would be for Firaxis to decide to make such a game, and I have every confidence they could easily meet or even surpass my wildest expectations. So how about it? Anyone else wish to offer your thoughts or voice of support for such a project, please feel welcome. And thanks for taking the time to hear me out.

[TheGaleRider]

atlantean님이 먼저 게시:

The premise seems simple compared to Civilization, but it's all that's needed. You have various facility types (Capital, City/Army Base, Factory, Airport/Air Base, Port, Naval Base, etc.) with which you draw income and manufacture new units or repair damaged ones. Capturing (or in certain versions destroying) an enemy facility adds its resources to your own and deprives your opponent of it, and the ultimate goal is to capture the other players' Capitals. The carnage and attrition often mean that finances decide the outcome of a match (Pro Tip: to beat America, whose modern-era units are hands down the best in about every category but also the most expensive, focus on damaging/destroying their most expensive/difficult to replace stuff).

Actually, the ultimate goal of Civilization is to achieve one of the five victory conditions, not just Domination. As for beating America, I'd read Zigzagzigal's Guide to America.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=180689240

A) I'd look at the RED WWII mods because that's what you seem to be into. Or comb through the Workshop to find mods that add more modern units. Or take a look at previous Civilization games.

B) Civ V SDK. It's in the tools of your library. Or this:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=77002777&searchtext=IGE

C) I guess you could look at the Total War series of games if you're into battle cinematics.

D) I got nothing.

E) I suppose the More Promotions mod might help. But I don't think it has everything you listed.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=84863495&searchtext=More+Promotions

F) Already in Civ V.

atlantean님이 먼저 게시:

Winning any of these games requires careful balancing of unit types. Only Infantry can capture facilities but it's pointless if they can't get to their destination safely and efficiently. Not building anti-air systems means your opponents can just fly right over your territory and drop infantry to capture your facilities. Artillery with a wall of armor in front of it makes for a lethal combination, even more so if you add attack helicopters and ground attack aircraft to the mix.

Actually, any melee/gunpowder unit can capture cities, not just Infantry (so you have to add Mounted/Armored units and Naval Melee to that list). Not to mention that Infantry (or any other melee/gunpowder unit) is the bread and butter of your army. They'll take losses either way. And Paratroopers/XCOM Squads can drop into your territory regardless of whether you have anit-air or not. They can't be intercepted. Not to mention when they Paradrop, they can't attack on the same turn.

A few more points:
1. Put a TL;DR. I read the whole thing, but at most a skim.
2. Civ V is an empire builder, not necessarily a war simulator/strategy game. It's completely possible to play peacefully.
3. The games you mentioned focus on a particular era in history; Civ V spans all of history, and can't exactly put so much detail into one particular era (because that would mean that they would have to put it into all).
4. They're called cities, not facilities.

[atlantean]

I think you misunderstood the intent of my OP. I'm not seeking a Civ V mod or an empire builder here (after all, we have that in Civilization V). I'm asking for Firaxis to see what they can do with an entire title focusing solely on turn-based, real world units and combat. Maybe they'll read my post and maybe not; as I mentioned earlier I never received a reply to an earlier e-mail attempt, but if anything voicing my request here in the forums gives other Steam users the opportunity to chime in and add their support or opinions.

Total War is a RTS (and when I mentioned the Wargame series I was referring specifically to its visual detail). Not even in the same ballpark.

Your fourth point again is apples and oranges and appears to be based upon your own admission that you skimmed instead of carefully read my OP. In Daisenryaku facilities are simply capturable hexes that provide money (cities, factories, Capitals) or manufacture/repair/resupply units (various Bases, airports, ports).

Yes, it was a long post. Lots of stuff to cover, but nobody is being forced to read it who doesn't wish to. TL/DR comments are annoying to me because they reflect people who apparently don't care enough to take the time to read a post (a casualty of social media and portable devices on literacy and attention span) but apparently have enough time to post a pointless response that they didn't take said time to read it.

[TheGaleRider]

Well, I think it sounds like a good idea!

atlantean님이 먼저 게시:

Total War is a RTS (and when I mentioned the Wargame series I was referring specifically to its visual detail). Not even in the same ballpark.

I think the combat is RTS where everything else is turn-based. But you're right, it's different from what you're looking for.

atlantean님이 먼저 게시:

Your fourth point again is apples and oranges and appears to be based upon your own admission that you skimmed instead of carefully read my OP. In Daisenryaku facilities are simply capturable hexes that provide money (cities, factories, Capitals) or manufacture/repair/resupply units (various Bases, airports, ports).

Just me nitpicking.

atlantean님이 먼저 게시:

Yes, it was a long post. Lots of stuff to cover, but nobody is being forced to read it who doesn't wish to. TL/DR comments are annoying to me because they reflect people who apparently don't care enough to take the time to read a post (a casualty of social media and portable devices on literacy and attention span) but apparently have enough time to post a pointless response that they didn't take said time to read it.

Well, I actually read a lot of it, but a lot of it was skimmed as well (only skimmed the end of parts A and B and the third-to-last paragraph). I still took quite a bit of time considering the idea though. FYI, I don't participate in social media nor do I use my cell phone. I meant it as suggestion to put in a TL;DR, not as an insult.

PS: Would you be open to real-time strategy (with pause)? If so, I would suggest games by Paradox.

[atlantean]

Sorry for taking offense; I tend to make detailed, wordy posts online so I get responses like "TL;DR" a lot (often coupled with hostility as if I did something wrong or offensive by going over a couple of sentences in length). Thanks for your suggestions, though; it's just that Daisenryaku fills a needed gap that I haven't seen duplicated in any Western-published games to date. It'd be awesome if a top-notch publisher like Firaxis gave a straight-up grand scale military turn-based simulator a go. I know I'd be pre-ordering, for certain.

[TheGaleRider]

Try Hearts of Iron 3 (or wait for Hearts of Iron 4). It's got incredible depth and detail and it seems like something you'd be really into.

[atlantean]

Thanks, I keep hearing about that one. I'll definitely pick it up when I get an opportunity.

[July7]

Wanted to stop by and say thank you to the OP... I have been looking for the name of the game Dai Senryaku VII, and after a long search i peice together enough info about the game to find your fairly new post that contianed the name as well as the key reference i needed to track the game down.

Thank You

[Rikki]

Thank you to OP. I know I am late to the conversation but I really enjoyed your post and I do hope it gets more attention!


Dai Senryaku: exceed (xbox/ps2) is awesome because of the multiplayer. 4-player with vs AI or any kind configuration. Please world, more of this type of game.

Reasons that make Dai Senryaku: exceed a great game:
-many realistic named nation specific units
-battle animations
-air/land/sea all together
-supply system
-large maps
-4 player multiplayer/co-op
-custom maps
-PLENTY of included free play maps
-Turn based strategy
-save and continue later multiplayer
-50 unit ea unit limit (x 4 players = 200 units of 10 men total)
-load & unload infantry/light vehicles system
-air unit altitude (lo/med/high) gameplay
-paratroops
-cities/factories/airstrips/shipyards/and fuel
-FUEL system(rare to run out but possible, air units perish without fuel)
-extra move distance at the cost of more fuel system
-terrain defense bonus
-fog of war is dangerous, most units cannot see very far & require scouts
-units with multiple kits, can engage different targets depending on the variant bought.
(ground units for example can take Sam/AT/ along with rifles, or can carry extra AT ammo while sacrificing SAM capability or vice versa)

I really just wish there was a PC version of this (Dai Senryaku: exceed) game, for the sake of everyone having their own screen because on the PS2 you share the same screen which is comparable to playing poker and seeing each-others hands. A pc version would ideally be LAN and online, as well as more players. 4vs4 for example, with multiplayer save games.

Games that very respectably close to the "dream wargame" and if anyone is starting a indie development company, please know there is a demand for these types of games and you would really be hitting the mark by taking cues from several games.

War leaders: clash of nations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Leaders:_Clash_of_Nations
this game concept is pretty awesome. but its bugged to almost unplayble.
multiplayer games freeze randomly but definitely.
also, they could scrap the rts battles and just auto calc. (total war ripoff)
I think this is playable single player but I am not interested in that at all.

Order of Battle
http://store.steampowered.com/app/312450/
almost bought this, but its maps are small, not enough nations.
I keep watching Slitherine (http://www.slitherine.com/) to see if they make more like this with expanded features
great looking game

Close combat
http://store.steampowered.com/app/297750/
http://store.steampowered.com/app/368220/
only 2 player multiplayer :( really too bad
real time strategy
amazing game otherwise

Wargame
http://store.steampowered.com/app/58610/
http://store.steampowered.com/app/222750/
http://store.steampowered.com/app/251060/
these games are amazing
real time strategy lots of players with co-op
awesome! can even 10vs10 players
not turn-based.
wish it was.


OPs post definitely hits all the reasons Dai Senryaku is unique and I believe there is a viable market for more games like this.
If anything, thank you for giving me a place to vent!