Thoughts about Civ V's Byzantium

[lewosch]

I think their unique units are just fine and can be utilized effectively. Dromon has bonus to other naval units which is useful for clearing out coastal dangers with its ranged Greek fire, although it's a bit more expensive to build than Trireme. Cataphract behaves like a standard melee/ranged infantry by having the ability to benefit from defensive terrain and fortification aspect, even though it's a bit slower than regular Horseman. But their unique ability seems to be a gamble, especially in higher difficulty levels where AI opponents get considerable gameplay bonuses. I'm not very hopeful about a final balance patch for Civ V, considering Civ: Beyond Earth is the more popular title. Nonetheless, I have a few suggestions for a better Byzantine unique ability.

1- A free shrine in capital upon researching Pottery. Choose 1 more belief when founding a religion. (A free shrine without pumping hammers to it at this early stage of game would make them compete with religion-focused civs like Celts, Ethiopia or Maya, in a better way.)

2- 20% production towards religious wonders in capital. Choose 1 more belief when founding a religion. (a real life reference to Byzantium's Hagia Sophia. Returning to game, they might just rush Stonehenge which is unlocked after Calendar is researched that comes just after Pottery which unlocks the first faith generating building of the game, shrine. Religious wonders: Grand Temple (national), Notre Dame, Hagia Sophia, Borobudur, Great Mosque of Djenne, Stonehenge)

3- Build shrines and temples in half the usual time. Choose 1 more belief when founding a religion. (This would also give them a good advantage to found a religion. Remember that, currently, a Byzantium without its own religion is a civilization whose unique ability is thrown away completely.)

I would like to know your opinions about Byzantium as well. Or notify me, if I miss some important game mechanics about Civ V's religion or Byzantines in general.

[Jimmy McGill]

All they need to be balanced is a good way to get faith so they are actually guranteed to get a religion.

[xycotta]

+1 faith per city

[The Rock God]

Originally posted by lewosch:

I'm not very hopeful about a final balance patch for Civ V, considering Civ: Beyond Earth is the more popular title.

Oh my god... laughing... so hard... can't breathe... did I just pee myself?

[Damsteri]

I think Byzantium is good. Both Droman and bonus belief are extremely good, so you have to pay for it. Price is that you have to focus on religion all out early. But it only works up for Emperor level or so. Byzantium just needs more thinking when you play with them. They are good for anything, because of their flexible religion, but most players just don't know how to use them. I like very much to go for religious culture victory, building three different buildings with can bought with faith and Sacred Sites reformation belief. My fastest culture victory is with Byzantium, 168 turns on standard speed.

Byzantium is also very good on coastal warmongering, because of Dromons. With Great Lighthouse your Dromon's can see 3 tiles away and you can use them first against barbarians, then against your neigbour or city state to get three bombardment promos and then the range promo. They can destroy everything on sea and on land once they see 3 tiles away and can shoot also 3 tiles away.

Once "hidden" bonus is that Byzantium's coastal cities can't be conquered in ancient/classical eras. City with an archer and a dromon defending can shoot three times per turn and can kill an an unit per turn, making them unconquerable.

One problem is that Byzantium AI is not focusing on religion and left without it quite often. They don't even build a single shrine. Once they settled a city three tiles away from Mt. Kailash... and didn't get a religion while it was given to them with a gold plate.

EDIT: It's similar to India, both have a good bonus and also a handicap. I would like that all civs have same kind of mechanism, not just boring small bonuses here and there. A system with a good bonus and some kind of handicap makes you think and plan ahead what you are doing. There are some mod civilizations which offer same kind of choices, but normal civilizations are mostly just boring. Well, Huns have their Battering Ram, but they have no anti-mounted unit until Pikemen.

[Jimmy McGill]

Originally posted by The Rock God:

Originally posted by lewosch:

I'm not very hopeful about a final balance patch for Civ V, considering Civ: Beyond Earth is the more popular title.

Oh my god... laughing... so hard... can't breathe... did I just pee myself?

I'm actually confident that BE sold more copies in the last two month than Civ5 did in the last two month. Skewed Statistics FTW!

[Acken]

If Piety was a good tree garanteeing a strong religion and really enhancing it to compete with tradition/liberty, Byzantium would be a lot stronger.

[Damsteri]

Originally posted by Sinnaj63:

I'm actually confident that BE sold more copies in the last two month than Civ5 did in the last two month. Skewed Statistics FTW!

Is a game more popular if it's sold more? Yes, I think too that Civ BE was sold more than Civ V. At least when both were on day sale, Civ BE has higher up in top sales list.

But.... how about playing statistics? They can be found here: http://store.steampowered.com/stats

Currently there are about 40k players playing Civ V (7th of all games), while only little bit over 6k players play Civ BE (35th). Peak amount is over 6 times higher in Civ V than in Civ BE.

Civ V is still more played game, but Civ BE is more sold.... which one is more popular? There are many statistics, and everyone can choose which one fits them. Like it is said about lying: "Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

[Kujo Irene]

good interms of a religious civ but i'd say for a religious passive the celts have a better one.

[Jimmy McGill]

Originally posted by Damsteri:

Originally posted by Sinnaj63:

I'm actually confident that BE sold more copies in the last two month than Civ5 did in the last two month. Skewed Statistics FTW!

Is a game more popular if it's sold more? Yes, I think too that Civ BE was sold more than Civ V. At least when both were on day sale, Civ BE has higher up in top sales list.

But.... how about playing statistics? They can be found here: http://store.steampowered.com/stats

Currently there are about 40k players playing Civ V (7th of all games), while only little bit over 6k players play Civ BE (35th). Peak amount is over 6 times higher in Civ V than in Civ BE.

Civ V is still more played game, but Civ BE is more sold.... which one is more popular? There are many statistics, and everyone can choose which one fits them. Like it is said about lying: "Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

Actually, I meant to say that, in the last two month(Which is pretty much the whole time BE came out), it sold more copies than Civ5 in the same two month. I am actually pretty sure Civ5 sold more overall copies(And is obviously more popular; statistics don't lie in this case).

[Damsteri]

Originally posted by Sinnaj63:

Actually, I meant to say that, in the last two month(Which is pretty much the whole time BE came out), it sold more copies than Civ5 in the same two month. I am actually pretty sure Civ5 sold more overall copies(And is obviously more popular; statistics don't lie in this case).

Ahh.. Now I understand. You meant the first two month perioid after the release. Yep, I think that Civ BE won that one too. I bought Civ BE day before the release, but Civ V maybe 3-4 months after the release. Maybe Civ BE have been just more hyped, and it was spritiual successor for two games... and maybe failed both, but that's another story.

[lewosch]

Originally posted by The Rock God:

Originally posted by lewosch:

I'm not very hopeful about a final balance patch for Civ V, considering Civ: Beyond Earth is the more popular title.

Oh my god... laughing... so hard... can't breathe... did I just pee myself?

I think I used the wrong word there, by saying "more popular". I meant this in the perspective of Firaxis and 2K. Civ: Beyond Earth is currently much more thought and cared by them. But the community hasn't still moved Beyond Earth yet, as shown in Steam stats. The reasons may vary: some players were annoyed by the game's release period issues, some people don't like the idea of a Civ game in space, perhaps some players with insufficient budget still find it expensive, some gamers may expect the first expansion to be able to play a polished game with more content.

I don't think Beyond Earth can surpass Civ V in terms of concurrent player count. But player base will likely grow, after a couple updates regarding to bug fixes and balance tweaks, plus more importantly following a successful expansion pack.

[Jimmy McGill]

Originally posted by lewosch:

Originally posted by The Rock God:

Oh my god... laughing... so hard... can't breathe... did I just pee myself?

I think I used the wrong word there, by saying "more popular". I meant this in the perspective of Firaxis and 2K. Civ: Beyond Earth is currently much more thought and cared by them. But the community hasn't still moved Beyond Earth yet, as shown in Steam stats. The reasons may vary: some players were annoyed by the game's release period issues, some people don't like the idea of a Civ game in space, perhaps some players with insufficient budget still find it expensive, some gamers may expect the first expansion to be able to play a polished game with more content.

I don't think Beyond Earth can surpass Civ V in terms of concurrent player count. But player base will likely grow, after a couple updates regarding to bug fixes and balance tweaks, plus more importantly following a successful expansion pack.

I maybe agree with the expansion pack part. Civ5 was unpopular to a level kinda similar to BE before it's expansion packs and polishes hit. Though I'd still say BE will always stay the worse and less popular game; it's just Civ5 disassembled, put into a box with some parts of Endless Space and then reassembled.

[The Rock God]

Originally posted by Sinnaj63:

Originally posted by lewosch:

I think I used the wrong word there, by saying "more popular". I meant this in the perspective of Firaxis and 2K. Civ: Beyond Earth is currently much more thought and cared by them. But the community hasn't still moved Beyond Earth yet, as shown in Steam stats. The reasons may vary: some players were annoyed by the game's release period issues, some people don't like the idea of a Civ game in space, perhaps some players with insufficient budget still find it expensive, some gamers may expect the first expansion to be able to play a polished game with more content.

I don't think Beyond Earth can surpass Civ V in terms of concurrent player count. But player base will likely grow, after a couple updates regarding to bug fixes and balance tweaks, plus more importantly following a successful expansion pack.

I maybe agree with the expansion pack part. Civ5 was unpopular to a level kinda similar to BE before it's expansion packs and polishes hit. Though I'd still say BE will always stay the worse and less popular game; it's just Civ5 disassembled, put into a box with some parts of Endless Space and then reassembled.

Even with all of the problems Civ5 had when it first came out - and it had a lot of them - it has always been popular. It has rarely fallen below 30k in the 'current players' count, and has never fallen out of the top 10 played games on Steam. If you exclude f2p games, I don't think it's ever been out of the top 5. I don't think BE will surpass Civ5 in player counts until after Civ6 comes out. Even then, it still may not.

[frapp3_lake_]

"I'm not very hopeful about a final balance patch for Civ V, considering Civ: Beyond Earth is the more popular title."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. It'll take a few expansions before BE can fill in the shoes as a worthy heir to Alpha Centauri and Call to Power.

[lewosch]

Originally posted by Starwing1:

"I'm not very hopeful about a final balance patch for Civ V, considering Civ: Beyond Earth is the more popular title."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. It'll take a few expansions before BE can fill in the shoes as a worthy heir to Alpha Centauri and Call to Power.

I think they'll release only one expansion pack for Civ: BE. They may have made a good profit at the game, but the fans' expectations don't seem to be met. I believe that some part of Firaxis are already working on Civ 6 right now and my guess about its launch period is end of 2016.