How to balance Pikemen?

[Dennis[DK]]

I've heard many people said, that Pikemen is somewhat OP, by a combination of several reasons:
- Require a 1st column tech, every AI rush for (Civil Service)
- Do not require any resources
- Stronger than any ancient and classical UU, and because of the reasons above, it can make classical warfare a pain in the but, because when you finally have an army ready, the AI have reach Civil Service, and can take every classical unit and ditto UU out without problems, especially unique horses.

What do you think? Do you agree?
Personally, I do. And I think, that they should balance the Pikemens, which could be done by one or more of the following solutions:
- Make Pikemen require iron
- Let them be available later (Chivalry); let them be available with an other tech, which the AI don't rush for (Guilds); or let them require multiple techs (CS and Metal Casting), a concept known from Civ IV
- Give them less strength (from 16 to 14, same as a Swordsman), but let them keep mounted bonus
- Give CS a Medieval Era prerequired tech (maybe Guilds), so it takes longer to obtain

What do you think? I would like to hear your opinion(s)

[Jimmy McGill]

Pikemen aren't really OP. They're just the first Medieval unit, and therefore stronger than previous era units.

Though I now wonder why the AI has tons of Pikemen but never has any lancers.

[Matthew]

It isn't necessarily that pikemen are overpowered, but the alternatives are not competitive. Pikes are on Civil Service, which is an excellent tech anyway, and it is on the way to Education (the single most important tech in the entire game). In contrast, swordsmen and longswords are out of the way, require iron, and only delay Education without giving enough in return to make it worth it. Outside of fun role-playing, you are actually puting yourself behind by getting swords and longswords before getting Education.

I can't say I agree with the iron requirement. Leaving an iron-less nation with zero access to meat shields isn't a good idea, not to mention it would make the AI weaker than it already is.

If I were to make any changes, I'd say make it so it is primarily a defensive role, while knights/swords are offensive. Perhaps something like they only get the bonus against mounted if they are fortified, and give swords cover promo for free. Perhaps equalize the combat strength of regular swords and pikes (either both 14 or both 16). Even then I'm not sure the choice would be competitive, but at least you wouldn't feel outright punished.

[Matthew]

Originally posted by Sinnaj63:

Though I now wonder why the AI has tons of Pikemen but never has any lancers.

Horses.

And on a related note, having the AI mass pikes is terrible in the long-term, since they sit on lancers forever. Anti-tank guns come extremely late, so there is a huge window where the AI is sitting on a crap ton of lancers while you run around with 70 str. infantry.

[Jimmy McGill]

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by Sinnaj63:

Though I now wonder why the AI has tons of Pikemen but never has any lancers.

Horses.

And on a related note, having the AI mass pikes is terrible in the long-term, since they sit on lancers forever. Anti-tank guns come extremely late, so there is a huge window where the AI is sitting on a crap ton of lancers while you run around with 70 str. infantry.

That would make sense if the AI wouldn't always have horses and still seemingly never upgrade to/built lancers.

[Matthew]

Do they have them outside of borders? Seems like they spend most of their time dancing units outside of other nation's borders, and units outside of their own borders cannot upgrade. I remember one game where one AI (cannot remember which, perhaps Assyria) moved out composite bows all the way across the map to attack and by the time it manage to get there, muskets/cannon were on the field.

They could also have been low on gold. AI's in my game love to run a constant negative balance.

[Dennis[DK]]

@Matthew:
Yes, making Pikemen a defensive unit, will also be a opportunity for solution.

[Jimmy McGill]

Originally posted by DennisDK:

@Matthew:
Yes, making Pikemen a defensive unit, will also be a opportunity for solution.

I think people already use pikemen defensively mostly, and the AI is dumb anyway.

[Matthew]

Hence my original comment. Pikemen aren't really the problem, it is that the alternative completely lacks in comparison. If you (or the AI, but it is dumb...) want to go on the offensive, you are better off using pikes over both swords and longswords majority of the time. So while ppl may use them defensively, they use them for offense as well. Pretty much the only reason to use swords I can think of outside of fun role-playing is if you plan on going for heavy promo's on later infantry units and want to begin stacking promo's as early as possible.

Out of most of the tier lists, the ones with perks on the warrior ~> musket line are among the lowest rated. And there is a reason for it.

It is also the reason why I love war-mongering with the Celts. Upgraded Picts keep their foreign lands bonus so they get to use pikes equal to 19 strength, damn near equivalent to longswords. And they get to completely avoid the dead-end bottom part of the tech tree until after Education.

[Jimmy McGill]

Originally posted by Matthew:

Hence my original comment. Pikemen aren't really the problem, it is that the alternative completely lacks in comparison. If you (or the AI, but it is dumb...) want to go on the offensive, you are better off using pikes over both swords and longswords majority of the time. So while ppl may use them defensively, they use them for offense as well. Pretty much the only reason to use swords I can think of outside of fun role-playing is if you plan on going for heavy promo's on later infantry units and want to begin stacking promo's as early as possible.

Out of most of the tier lists, the ones with perks on the warrior ~> musket line are among the lowest rated. And there is a reason for it.

It is also the reason why I love war-mongering with the Celts. Upgraded Picts keep their foreign lands bonus so they get to use pikes equal to 19 strength, damn near equivalent to longswords. And they get to completely avoid the dead-end bottom part of the tech tree until after Education.

Most people use Ranged Units/Crossbowmen tonwage war in such situations. While themselves to be researched after Education, they have great damage output and don't really get obsolete quickly. Before that, Composite Bowmen are still an option.

[frapp3_lake_]

Normal pikemen aren't OP. If one is getting their ass handed to them by pikemen, they need to revise their strategy. Besides, one with a decent army of longswordmen or a bunch of ranged units will make mincemeat out of pikemen. Also, their upgrade, the Lancer, is god awful (unless you're playing as Poland, where you can get some great helicopter hunships once upgraded).

[Random Reference #98]

Pikemen aren't that great, just better than older units like any newer one. The only balance they need is what there is already: Their upgrade path is horrible and while it doesn't take a resource to build them it does to upgrade them.

After pikemen it's pretty much all downhill so spamming too many of them early isn't really the best use of production when other units upgrade much better.

[dasaard200]

Pike vs. Lancers = horsemeat for lunch .

[Danny]

Pikeman get a 50% bonus vs mounted so it only totals to 24strength where as Lancers have 25str naturally so its not horsemeat for lunch its a pretty fair fight. And as many have mentioned sure it is a first medieval tech so its a bit strong in its arrival but say if everyone rushes education then "cleaning up" and going for the rest of medieval techs like longswords is so quick it makes pikeman gone really fast. Not to mention they are not too str for medieval era city taking anyway as by then a city with walls has strong defence str because it is medieval era and not classical. Plus you forget to realize how many MORE techs it takes to get pikeman than say rushing horses or swordsman or even catapults and swordsman that indeed it is viable to get an early warfare to crush any neighbor on your continent and begin your runaway civ.

Not gonna lie though on paper they do seem pretty OP but in game they are not OP at all. The few major counter civs for this OP ability on paper would probably be denmark for getting bersekrser at workshop instead of steel and maybe siam for their elephants have more combat str than a pikeman even with the 50% buff from their promo. But nah they get outclassed quick unless said pikeman are zulu Impi then you are in a bit of a problem.

We must look at this game in percents instead of actual numbers because it seems yeah 16str is 2points stronger than 14str but man thats like a 15% difference which isnt too much at all. If you really wanted to warmonger you could mitigate that difference with easy peasy discipline from honor tree or getting morale from the national wonder on some swordsman. Hell even being on the defensive and fighting in rough terrain or just having a +1 shock promotion and attack on open lands

[Matthew]

Originally posted by Sinnaj63:

Most people use Ranged Units/Crossbowmen tonwage war in such situations. While themselves to be researched after Education, they have great damage output and don't really get obsolete quickly. Before that, Composite Bowmen are still an option.

Right. And they also use 2 or 3 pikes fortified down for zone of control. Not really needed on lower difficulties and people love to try and play up the "lol just mass range" notion, but fact is on Deity or against some of the more unit spammy factions on Immortal, it is just making it harder on yourself by not having the couple units for zone of control. If/when Atilla pours in a crap ton of rams around one of your core cities, having no pikes to block off the city is a very annoying scenario.

But not like any of this matters. Nothing is going to change at this point. I will say though that it is too bad BE's other flaws are overshadowing what I think is an improvement overall on units. In that game, ranger's (i.e. bows) play more of a support role and will easily get 1-shot by combat rovers (i.e. knights) if they aren't protected.

[Jimmy McGill]

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by Sinnaj63:

Most people use Ranged Units/Crossbowmen tonwage war in such situations. While themselves to be researched after Education, they have great damage output and don't really get obsolete quickly. Before that, Composite Bowmen are still an option.

Right. And they also use 2 or 3 pikes fortified down for zone of control. Not really needed on lower difficulties and people love to try and play up the "lol just mass range" notion, but fact is on Deity or against some of the more unit spammy factions on Immortal, it is just making it harder on yourself by not having the couple units for zone of control. If/when Atilla pours in a crap ton of rams around one of your core cities, having no pikes to block off the city is a very annoying scenario.

But not like any of this matters. Nothing is going to change at this point. I will say though that it is too bad BE's other flaws are overshadowing what I think is an improvement overall on units. In that game, ranger's (i.e. bows) play more of a support role and will easily get 1-shot by combat rovers (i.e. knights) if they aren't protected.

You could also use Swordsmen/Longswordsmen/Musketmen for that. They also upgrade to not-crappy stuff.