Dutch in Civ V

[lewosch]

What do you think about the Netherlands of Civ V, in general? Sea Beggars have useful promotions which help for naval domination. However, I think Polders are a bit situational, considering flood plains and marshes aren't employed as start biases. Netherlands' starting bias is grassland and it is common not being able to find any marsh or flood plain tiles near the spawn location. Additionally, I guess Dutch AI doesn't know how to utilize their unique ability. They don't trade their last luxuries even if friendship is declared with them and I offer sufficient gold or a new luxury.

Just think of the unique tile improvements in Civ V together with their respective civs' starting biases. (Chateau, Kasbah, Terrace Farm, Brazilwood Camp, Moai, Feitoria and Polder) Dutch Polders have the strictest tile type requirement among all. They are obviously the most luck-dependent improvement to construct. Combining this with inadequate Dutch AI, it's no wonder Netherlands usually plays bad in single-player games, at least in my games, as I can't speak for everyone.

[FatalCharm]

You have a good point about polders. In my single player games though, it seems like the Netherlands always are one of the stronger civs. This could be because of the way that I set the game up though; I always play on large/huge maps, continents, 22 civs.

[Григорий Швепс]

lal

[Jimmy McGill]

Polders are really too weak Gundi always nukes them.

http://i.imgur.com/zCd8MBO.jpg

Seriously though, Polders are OP and Grassland Start Bias means higher chance of marsh. There's enough flood plains and marsh anyway to give you enough OP tiles.

[lewosch]

I just tried to test the possibility of enough appropriate tiles for polder by restarting the game as Netherlands, over and over. All I can say is, even grassland bias is not guaranteed for at least 3 or 4 "polder"able tiles inside 10 tiles diameter of circle, center being the capital Amsterdam. That's hardly ever a case, let's say for terrace farm or moai. And Netherlands is the only civilization in the game, which has a naval unique unit (Sea Beggar) whereas its starting bias is different from coastal. Other naval uniques being: Quinqureme, Dromon, Ship of the Line, Turtle Ship, Nau, Great Galleass. I really like the idea of Netherlands in terms of gameplay perspective, but still believe it may be a lot better with a few tweaks. They offer a versatile approach to different victory conditions. Maybe, culture being the least, though.

[Jimmy McGill]

Originally posted by lewosch:

I just tried to test the possibility of enough appropriate tiles for polder by restarting the game as Netherlands, over and over. All I can say is, even grassland bias is not guaranteed for at least 3 or 4 "polder"able tiles inside 10 tiles diameter of circle, center being the capital Amsterdam. That's hardly ever a case, let's say for terrace farm or moai. And Netherlands is the only civilization in the game, which has a naval unique unit (Sea Beggar) whereas its starting bias is different from coastal. Other naval uniques being: Quinqureme, Dromon, Ship of the Line, Turtle Ship, Nau, Great Galleass. I really like the idea of Netherlands in terms of gameplay perspective, but still believe it may be a lot better with a few tweaks. They offer a versatile approach to different victory conditions. Maybe, culture being the least, though.

Have you ever actually played a game with them? Unless you're really unlucky, polders will be the salt of tile improvement.

[Grumpy]

Originally posted by Sinnaj63:

Have you ever actually played a game with them? Unless you're really unlucky, polders will be the salt of tile improvement.

This. A.I. is a bad measure of how good or bad a civ is.
Salt can spawn on grasslands an is a god tier lux resource in the early game, wheat ony spawns on grassland as well as the fact that grassland is base 2 food, 3 with farm. With so much potential growth you would be crazy to not go tall and the fact you can trade away your last lux and keep happiness is icing on the cake for a tall civ that might not have a lot of land/lux.

[Jimmy McGill]

Originally posted by x2Madda:

Originally posted by Sinnaj63:

Have you ever actually played a game with them? Unless you're really unlucky, polders will be the salt of tile improvement.

This. A.I. is a bad measure of how good or bad a civ is.
Salt can spawn on grasslands an is a god tier lux resource in the early game, wheat ony spawns on grassland as well as the fact that grassland is base 2 food, 3 with farm. With so much potential growth you would be crazy to not go tall and the fact you can trade away your last lux and keep happiness is icing on the cake for a tall civ that might not have a lot of land/lux.

NO ONE PLAYS DUTCH FOR THE UA! Polders are where it's at! They're the damn best Tile Improvements in the whole game! They're the canal cities of tile improvements!

[Crazee]

Just to test out how often the Netherlands starts near flood plains or marches, I restarted a game 10 times, only 4 of said times, have I been in a position to use more than 3 polders in my capital. If they were to change it, they should make it so their start bias is accually marches.

[TheGaleRider]

I really like playing as the Dutch (but mostly for the Polders, because they're awesome and look cool).
UA - This is a trade game. You want to play wide so you can mop up luxuries and Polder spots. Trade surplus luxuries for luxuries you don't have and then trade your last copies of your luxuries for even more luxuries you lack. With Protectionism (in Commerce), you can get a pretty sizable net gain of happiness (which will in turn support your wide empire).

UU - Sea Beggars are a very strong naval unit. Building them gives you Coastal Raider I and II as well as Supply (and when you account Barracks and Armories into the equation, you'll have a very strong unit). Good for naval domination. But like you said, the Netherlands doesn't have a coastal start bias, so you need to build a coastal city before the Renaissance.

UI - Polders require Marsh and Flood Plains. This is a really weird prerequisite. But the Grassland start bias (it's a bias, not a guarantee) increases the chance of you having Marsh (which only spawns on Grassland). As for Flood Plains, look for Desert and a River. I've played the Netherlands a few times, and you won't exactly find an abundance of Marsh and Flood Plains (which I guess is for the best, considering that Polders are very powerful), but you'll be able to build a few.

Overall verdict: I like it.

Guide: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=184478987

Originally posted by Sinnaj63:

NO ONE PLAYS DUTCH FOR THE UA!

Sadly this is true.

[lewosch]

Originally posted by Sinnaj63:

Have you ever actually played a game with them? Unless you're really unlucky, polders will be the salt of tile improvement.

Yes, I played a full game with them on an Earth map (the one in scrambled continents map pack, not the standard one) a few months ago. I spawned in China with lots of flood plains (about 4 or 5).

But recently I wanted to try it again on Pangea but most of the time I didn't like my spawns. Then I tried to test the possibility of a good spawn on Pangea/Continents maps, because I believe those 2 map types are the ones where loyalty towards starting bias is the most. About 50% of the time, there weren't any marsh or flood plain tiles in city working range. And roughly %25 of the time, there were no flood plains/marshes at all, in 10 tiles proximity of my capital.

Perhaps, my install of Civ V doesn't like me. I'd suggest you to do it, just start a game on Pangea or Continents type of map and play like 20 turns to explore the surroundings, 10 tiles in every direction. Try it, let's say 5 times, and tell the ratio of a good spawn. I sincerely believe that you will get a much better result for Incans, Brazilians or Polynesians; if you also repeat this process for them. (in terms of suitable tiles for terrace farm, brazilwood camp, moai; respectively.)

You're right about the awesome tile output for polders, but it seems this highly depends on spawn area. It is in fact, the same reason I try but can't like Byzantium's unique ability. Gamble-like things... I admit that I like Kris Swordsmen random promotions but the Byzantium UA and Dutch spawn territory's 'polder'ability have big impacts on the course of whole game, not just an era.

Originally posted by x2Madda:

This. A.I. is a bad measure of how good or bad a civ is.
Salt can spawn on grasslands an is a god tier lux resource in the early game, wheat ony spawns on grassland as well as the fact that grassland is base 2 food, 3 with farm. With so much potential growth you would be crazy to not go tall and the fact you can trade away your last lux and keep happiness is icing on the cake for a tall civ that might not have a lot of land/lux.

Yes, but certain AIs are known to be playing generally better. Especially those related to production bonuses like Rome. Poland and Greece are also known as good performers. While Austria is average on lower and standard difficulties, they just exploit the diplomatic marriage ability in higher difficulties, thanks to the bonuses given to AI. I merely would like to see an AI tweak about William can trade his last remaining luxury for some gold or another fresh luxury unlike his current behaviour.

[Matthew]

My experience with Niederlande: If playing as them, no marsh or floodplains as far as the eye can see. If not playing as them, drowning in an overabundance of marsh tiles.

I have more luck with Spain getting juicy 500 gold naturals than getting a single marsh tile as the Dutch.

Some people swear by their UA, that trading off those extra luxuries and keeping the happiness is worth the effort, but I've never been convinced. If you are growing fast, as you should, you really do want the full 4 happiness. They should be able to trade off the luxury and keep the full happiness bonus. It isn't like it would be overpowered *cough* Arabian Bazaar *cough*

I do like their UU though. It can be difficult to stack promo's on melee naval units, so having them start with the heal ability is rather significant. The main power is still through frigates, of course, but soaking up potential damage and being able to heal results in more durability than say England.

[Matthew]

As for tile improvements, I prefer the Kasbah. Desert tiles are common, and stacking it with desert folklore and petra is, IMO, far better bonus than polders. Less food, but a crap ton of faith which makes the religion game a joke, and results in massive amounts of gold and happiness.

[Jimmy McGill]

Originally posted by Matthew:

As for tile improvements, I prefer the Kasbah. Desert tiles are common, and stacking it with desert folklore and petra is, IMO, far better bonus than polders. Less food, but a crap ton of faith which makes the religion game a joke, and results in massive amounts of gold and happiness.

Foods's far more important than faith. And with Kesbash Desert tiles, you are just balanced. If anything, go Petracity, not Kasbah. And if you're going to get a bunch of monies to sit on for diplo victory, you migt as well go trade post spam on plains. You wouldn't get the faith, but you wouldn't need it anyway.

Anyone ever tried a city with Petra, Polders and Salt?

[lewosch]

Originally posted by Sinnaj63:

Anyone ever tried a city with Petra, Polders and Salt?

I did it once and all the AI leaders retired...

[Matthew]

Nah. You'd still be using flood plains as farms obviously. By the time you get the +1 hammer on mines or +1 food from non river farms, it is too late to really matter.

You also get a ton of hammers and gold in such a set-up. The thing is in an all-food city, all you got is population and science. Which true, is enough, but that is still all you get. If you can get decent food with essentially a ton of hammers, gold and faith thrown on for free, it is far better.