Songhai, and why Denmark is bad

[Crim]

The sad fact is, if you want to play a more classic "Viking" style, Songhai is probably a better choice than Denmark is.

To make the matters worse, we could have easily renamed Songhai into Denmark or Vikings with their exact current benefits and Songhai would have likely been one of the more popular choices.

Rename War Canoe to Longship, Mud Pyramid Mosque to Runestones, and River Warlord to Viking Fury. Boom, they are effectively about the same.

Even better, and more in the Viking fashion of plundering Cities, Songhai even gets triple the gold for plundering cities!

When we get to actual gameplay, both Songhai and Denmark are capable of the whole "Viking Assault from the Seas", with about the same effectiveness. One could argue which is better in either direction, and I won't discredit Berserkers. My point is that it hardly matters, since while they may be more or less equal effectiveness, the problem becomes that this is the ONLY thing Denmark can do. In the mean time, Songhai is doing an amazing job with both Religion and Culture.

Also I am sure we all are agree that Mandelukes and Ski Infantry are both lame.

[Queengoth Sparklebitch]

I see your point, and now you've posted it here its probably only a matter of time before someone mods it, as you've said it wouldnt be a big job to take songhai's unique stuff change the names and slap a danish flag on the side of it call it Ragnar and hey presto we've got a battle of stamford bridge reinactment.

[Twelvefield]

I'd say that the Polynesians are the Pacific vikings. Again: proa = longship and maoi = runestone.

As for the Berzerkers, I think you are discounting them too much. Sure, either you have horses or you have iron. But Viking Fury is not the same as River Warlord. The Vikings were plunderers, but they weren't super-wealthy plunderers. They tended to channel the spoils of war back into their logistics. I'd much rather have the extra mobility and free plunder of Denmark over triple gold. There aren't many powerful units in the Early-Mid Renaissance that also have a lot of mobility - cavalry doesn't get defensive bonuses and will get crushed if cornered. The Berzerker is in a class by itself.

Once you get a good Viking berzerker rush going, there isn't much on the map that will stop you unless Erich von Däniken comes down out of his flying saucer and personally hands your enemies the keys to the nuclear bunkers. The ability to storm a beach in one move and pillage for free makes berzerkers terrifyingly powerful.

Still, there is the point about religion and culture. I guess the question is: do you need those things if you are winning the domination game? No. If you cannot win by domination as Denmark, then yes, you are going to have problems. But if you cannot figure a way to carve the planet into pieces with Denmark's powerful army, then you're playing Denmark the wrong way.

Sooner or later, DennisDK ought to chime in regarding folk schools, which would go some way to make Denmark play out more like Songhai.

Askia's cavalry... I have no idea how good they are, other than from the stat sheet. You can attack cities with them, which is powerful, but you'd have to gain the element of surprise for that to be effective. The ski infantry are more bizarre than lame. There are situations where they come in handy. Mostly, it's just funny to send them into desert combat. How Denmark got an alpine infantry without any mountains is also bizarre... some story about folding the Nowegians in with them.

[TheGaleRider]

Hmm...Interesting points. I've played both Songhai and Denmark before, albeit on easier difficulties.

Songhai's UA gives 3x gold from Barb encampments and city capture, as well as War Canoe (I think extra defense while embarked) and Amphibious (eliminates combat penalty from attacking from sea or over a river) promotions to all land units. Essentially helps support economy when taking out Barb encampments and when taking cities (took a Egyptian city with Burial Tomb, I think 1000 gold out of that). Also makes setting out across the seas for an attack a bit easier.

Denmark's UA gives all embarked units +1 movement and it costs 1 movement point to move from embarked to land. Melee units get no movement cost to pillage. Essentially helps embarkation and pillaging. Seems a bit lackluster right?

Let's look at how they perform in battle.

Songhai pretty much performs the same as any other Civ, except they don't get a penalty from attacking across the river. That's good. When making an amphibious attack (embarked to land), they don't get a nasty 50% combat penalty. Even better. Enemy navy? War Canoe makes them last out longer and get to land. Now for Songhai's UU. The Mandekalu Cavalry. Replaces the Knight, but doesn't have a combat penalty attacking cities and has Songhai's UA. Makes attacking river/coastal cities easier, and you can run away after attacking.

Battle is when Denmark shines with his UA. At the beginning of the game, embarkation makes 2 movement, but with Denmark, 3 movement. When a unit is right next to the coast, it will spend 1 movement point out of 3 when disembarking, making 2 movement on land. This means a disembarked unit that can instantly move and attack (especially with siege units on a city. You can disembark, set up, and attack). With Astronomy, it makes 4 movement for embarked units, and the same principle applies. Steam Power makes it 5 movement for embarked units (and the same principle applies). Denmark's UA progressively gets better, where Songhai's UA pretty much stays the same. And no movement cost to pillage (melee units only, but carries on upon upgrade to gunpowder units) means you can heal a wounded unit and still carry on with the attack (or retreat with the unit) effectively.

Now come the Berserkers. They replace the Longswordsman, but gets the Amphibious promotion (like Songhai's UA, minus the War Canoe) and +1 movement (3 movement total). And they follow ALL aspects of Denmark's UA. They are what makes Denmark so formidable. They can double as meatshields for your army and can run around really fast (3 movement can do wonders). Though they are obsolete the next tech, they can still pose a threat. This means that Denmark can fall behind scientifically and still pack a punch. Denmark's UA and Berserkers makes Denmark the champion at medieval blitz. They can disembark, set up siege and fire, and wipe out resistance in 1 turn. The pillage ability allows for them to stay alive and still decimate the resistance. Within several turns, you will have started a death juggernaut. Once Denmark gets started, it's hard for him to stop rolling.

Norwegian Ski Infantry are quite interesting. They aren't as good as their Berserker counterparts, but they can still take advantage of the Denmark UA. You should be upgrading Berserkers to Ski Infantry to get the most out of the carry-on upgrades (Amphibious, no movement cost to pillage) instead of building the Ski Infantry yourself. Ski Infantry can still follow Denmark's blitz ability relatively well. Hills will be the bane of your opponent now (as well as Tundra and Snow, but all this really affects is Russia and Sweden). Getting Woodsmen will allow some flexibility in rough terrain that the Berserkers once had.

Denmark simply excels at an amphibious blitz attack that really spells death upon the defender. Songhai pretty much is like any other Civ but has a few amphibious advantages which can be (at the most part) matched by the Berserker. Songhai and Denmark are certainly not equal in terms of the assault from the seas due to the fact that Denmark can immediatly launch his offensive right away after disembarking, where Songhai still has to wait a turn. And Denmark's ability to disembark at the cost of 1 movement point means that you can have 3 or more moves after disembarking, despite the 2 movement point cap (3 for Berserkers). This allows so much flexibility, especially with Workers, who can start improving tiles right off the bat.

Interesting point about the pillaging. I think that the pillaging is really meant for strategy (keeping units alive) rather than the gold purpose in Denmark's case. But Songhai gets more gold out of capturing cities.

It's true that the only thing Denmark can really do is war. But he can do war really well, even to the point that he might even be the best at it.

While Songhai has the Culture and Faith bonuses from the Mud Pyramid Mosque (not to mention 0 gold maintenance), Denmark simply doesn't care. Culture and Faith will hardly put a dent in the Danish amphibian blitz juggernaut.

Edit: Also going to point out Military City-States. If they gift you something like a Battering Ram or Siege Tower, you will simply be GOLDEN. If they gift you anything between the upgrade path of Warrior (Jaguars to Berserkers to Ski Infantry is pretty darn nice) to Swordsmen (Kris Swordsmen or Mohawk Warrior is nice) to Musketmen (imagine a Janissary or Minuteman following Denmark's UA). All Songhai can really do is use the Unique Units to some extent, where the Denmark can use their UA and upgrade path to have super soldiers.

[Danny]

You are also forgetting that becuase no movement point to pillage stuff you can literally repair/pillage a tile right next to an enemy city or in enemy territory if you go liberty and build the pyramids

But yeah also the embarking only takes 1 movement point from sea to land is amazing. Could get units with 8movement points at times.

[Danny]

Forget to mention that berskers come at workshops or w/e it is. 1 tech before longswordsman. I think you already mentioned 3 movespeed instead of 2 cuz i TLDR it

Originally posted by TheGaleRider:

Hmm...Interesting points. I've played both Songhai and Denmark before, albeit on easier difficulties.

Songhai's UA gives 3x gold from Barb encampments and city capture, as well as War Canoe (I think extra defense while embarked) and Amphibious (eliminates combat penalty from attacking from sea or over a river) promotions to all land units. Essentially helps support economy when taking out Barb encampments and when taking cities (took a Egyptian city with Burial Tomb, I think 1000 gold out of that). Also makes setting out across the seas for an attack a bit easier.

Denmark's UA gives all embarked units +1 movement and it costs 1 movement point to move from embarked to land. Melee units get no movement cost to pillage. Essentially helps embarkation and pillaging. Seems a bit lackluster right?

Let's look at how they perform in battle.

Songhai pretty much performs the same as any other Civ, except they don't get a penalty from attacking across the river. That's good. When making an amphibious attack (embarked to land), they don't get a nasty 50% combat penalty. Even better. Enemy navy? War Canoe makes them last out longer and get to land. Now for Songhai's UU. The Mandekalu Cavalry. Replaces the Knight, but doesn't have a combat penalty attacking cities and has Songhai's UA. Makes attacking river/coastal cities easier, and you can run away after attacking.

Battle is when Denmark shines with his UA. At the beginning of the game, embarkation makes 2 movement, but with Denmark, 3 movement. When a unit is right next to the coast, it will spend 1 movement point out of 3 when disembarking, making 2 movement on land. This means a disembarked unit that can instantly move and attack (especially with siege units on a city. You can disembark, set up, and attack). With Astronomy, it makes 4 movement for embarked units, and the same principle applies. Steam Power makes it 5 movement for embarked units (and the same principle applies). Denmark's UA progressively gets better, where Songhai's UA pretty much stays the same. And no movement cost to pillage (melee units only, but carries on upon upgrade to gunpowder units) means you can heal a wounded unit and still carry on with the attack (or retreat with the unit) effectively.

Now come the Berserkers. They replace the Longswordsman, but gets the Amphibious promotion (like Songhai's UA, minus the War Canoe) and +1 movement (3 movement total). And they follow ALL aspects of Denmark's UA. They are what makes Denmark so formidable. They can double as meatshields for your army and can run around really fast (3 movement can do wonders). Though they are obsolete the next tech, they can still pose a threat. This means that Denmark can fall behind scientifically and still pack a punch. Denmark's UA and Berserkers makes Denmark the champion at medieval blitz. They can disembark, set up siege and fire, and wipe out resistance in 1 turn. The pillage ability allows for them to stay alive and still decimate the resistance. Within several turns, you will have started a death juggernaut. Once Denmark gets started, it's hard for him to stop rolling.

Norwegian Ski Infantry are quite interesting. They aren't as good as their Berserker counterparts, but they can still take advantage of the Denmark UA. You should be upgrading Berserkers to Ski Infantry to get the most out of the carry-on upgrades (Amphibious, no movement cost to pillage) instead of building the Ski Infantry yourself. Ski Infantry can still follow Denmark's blitz ability relatively well. Hills will be the bane of your opponent now (as well as Tundra and Snow, but all this really affects is Russia and Sweden). Getting Woodsmen will allow some flexibility in rough terrain that the Berserkers once had.

Denmark simply excels at an amphibious blitz attack that really spells death upon the defender. Songhai pretty much is like any other Civ but has a few amphibious advantages which can be (at the most part) matched by the Berserker. Songhai and Denmark are certainly not equal in terms of the assault from the seas due to the fact that Denmark can immediatly launch his offensive right away after disembarking, where Songhai still has to wait a turn. And Denmark's ability to disembark at the cost of 1 movement point means that you can have 3 or more moves after disembarking, despite the 2 movement point cap (3 for Berserkers). This allows so much flexibility, especially with Workers, who can start improving tiles right off the bat.

Interesting point about the pillaging. I think that the pillaging is really meant for strategy (keeping units alive) rather than the gold purpose in Denmark's case. But Songhai gets more gold out of capturing cities.

It's true that the only thing Denmark can really do is war. But he can do war really well, even to the point that he might even be the best at it.

While Songhai has the Culture and Faith bonuses from the Mud Pyramid Mosque (not to mention 0 gold maintenance), Denmark simply doesn't care. Culture and Faith will hardly put a dent in the Danish amphibian blitz juggernaut.

Edit: Also going to point out Military City-States. If they gift you something like a Battering Ram or Siege Tower, you will simply be GOLDEN. If they gift you anything between the upgrade path of Warrior (Jaguars to Berserkers to Ski Infantry is pretty darn nice) to Swordsmen (Kris Swordsmen or Mohawk Warrior is nice) to Musketmen (imagine a Janissary or Minuteman following Denmark's UA). All Songhai can really do is use the Unique Units to some extent, where the Denmark can use their UA and upgrade path to have super soldiers.

[kafkaclone]

very long thorough detailed reespnses.

[Crim]

Impressive response, and you are correct in saying that Berserkers and Denmark in general has a much faster, and likely more aggressive speed towards their "Marine" operations. Berserkers are a powerful and significant unit. One could also argue that Songhai has a more patient, defensive strategy to theirs. War Canoe basically makes them nearly invulnerable in the water.

My point is tho that Denmark DOES care that they are falling behind in basically every other aspect. As fast as you may potentially be, it does not change the fact in the end you are still attacking with basically only Vanilla LongSwordsman. They get no offensive bonus, which means that as fast as your assault is, any other civ can realistically defend against it. This is true for Songhai as well, but the difference is that Denmark is relying on Domination and only Domination to win. While Songhai has a better connection to other means of victory types.

[Twelvefield]

To sum up: Denmark is one of the best Domination Civ's out there. If you were a rookie player and asked "what civ is best for domination?", I'd go Denmark among others. There are better Domination civs, yes, but their offensive window relies on tighter win conditions, like the Mongols' infamous keshik rush. Denmark is a very forgiving domination civ that will allow you a very long run-up to their first UU, and then a decent run to their next UU, which does well if you can manage upgrading Berzerkers to Ski Infantry.

As for speed of movement (the idea that civs can defend against fast invaders), much of that will depend on map size. On Huge maps, then yes, Denmark loses some initiative since they have to crawl over that many more hexes just to get anywhere. But on Standard maps, you can get troops on the beach and attacking before the enemy can muster defenses. Even if you don't manage to capture cities, you can use the free pillage to hit and fade, wrecking the entire seaboard and killing the enemy economy.

[Crim]

Originally posted by Twelvefield:

To sum up: Denmark is one of the best Domination Civ's out there. If you were a rookie player and asked "what civ is best for domination?", I'd go Denmark among others. There are better Domination civs, yes, but their offensive window relies on tighter win conditions, like the Mongols' infamous keshik rush. Denmark is a very forgiving domination civ that will allow you a very long run-up to their first UU, and then a decent run to their next UU, which does well if you can manage upgrading Berzerkers to Ski Infantry.

As for speed of movement (the idea that civs can defend against fast invaders), much of that will depend on map size. On Huge maps, then yes, Denmark loses some initiative since they have to crawl over that many more hexes just to get anywhere. But on Standard maps, you can get troops on the beach and attacking before the enemy can muster defenses. Even if you don't manage to capture cities, you can use the free pillage to hit and fade, wrecking the entire seaboard and killing the enemy economy.

Claiming they are anywhere near the best domination civ is significantly overstating their power, their window is just as restricted. They are only stronger during the short window it takes for enemies to go from Metal Casting to Steel. After that they have a mobile marine attack, and will be extremely annoying to your coastal cities. Tho not as dangerous as you are stating, especially since they are severly hampered by enemy navy. My point from the beginning tho, was never to really discredit Denmark's Marine capabilities tho. More to say that having a good Marine is not enough, and Songhai has a good Marine while also having strength in other fields. Thus making Denmark pretty weak, even if they are slightly better at being Marines than Songhai. (Tho as I said as well, it could likely be argued towards either direction.)

[Twelvefield]

Please re-read my commentary. I am suggesting that for -rookie- players, Denmark is an excellent choice for domination victory. All of the domination civs have windows of opportunity. Denmark's is open longer thanks to the UA coupled with two UU's.

And there is no enemy navy if you take the majority of coastal cities in the mid-game. Naval operations don't become significant until the age of sail and beyond. The Vikings get going before that.

Certainly, on knowing that Denmark is on the map, you could spend everything you have on a naval turtle strategy. But then where would you be?

Anyways, there's quite a bit more reading on this subject:

http://steamcommunity.com/app/8930/discussions/0/864975632645246676/

For starters.

[Matthew]

TBH Denmark would be one of my favorite Civs if only one, simple change were implemented: Zerkers keep the +1 movement upon upgrade. 3 movement melee makes a huge difference, and I'd actually argue it is half the reason why Zulu are so good. It would still be a very niche Civ, but like Mongolia it would be specialized enough where it wouldn't matter, would still be fun to play.

And yeah, ski infantry is lame. Pretty sure they are Finnish, not Danish. At least the ski infantry they are paying homage to, ~13th century. Going for a viking theme and adding Finnish ski infantry to ski across desert and jungle tiles is easily one of the stupidest design decisions in this game.

[Matthew]

Originally posted by TheGaleRider:

While Songhai has the Culture and Faith bonuses from the Mud Pyramid Mosque (not to mention 0 gold maintenance), Denmark simply doesn't care. Culture and Faith will hardly put a dent in the Danish amphibian blitz juggernaut.

Nit-picking, but unless you plan on finishing the game before Industrialization, this advice is obsolete. Trying to war-monger while ignoring culture in BNW can backfire to the point of making you quit the game (war-mongering in -30 happiness is not fun). There are ways to get around it, namely don't be first to pick an ideology and follow the current culture leader, but the strategy of "everything into war/science, ignore everything else" just doesn't work as well as it used to.

And this is coming from experience, that was my favorite playstyle in G&K :) There was a period of adjustment after BNW release, and the massive ideology unhappiness will stop your war-mongering plans if you aren't prepared for it.

[TheGaleRider]

Originally posted by matthewameluxen:

Nit-picking, but unless you plan on finishing the game before Industrialization, this advice is obsolete.

Quite true. I was nit-picking a bit. But either way, as Denmark, all you really need is to beeline for the capitals. Sure, take a few cities. But the assualt is so fast that you can wipe out resistance and still keep the capital. I like to try and get the tech advantage so that I don't have to worry as much.

Originally posted by matthewameluxen:

And yeah, ski infantry is lame. Pretty sure they are Finnish, not Danish.

The official name for the unit is Norwegian Ski Infantry. Ski warfare is still incorporated into combat training in Norway and some other countries.

Originally posted by Talamare:

One could also argue that Songhai has a more patient, defensive strategy to theirs.

Yep. Unless you manage to get to the coast really fast, but either way Denmark still wins in the landing and offensive timing.

Originally posted by Danny:

You are also forgetting that becuase no movement point to pillage stuff

Pretty sure I mentioned it a few times.

Originally posted by Danny:

Forget to mention that berskers come at workshops or w/e it is. 1 tech before longswordsman. I think you already mentioned 3 movespeed instead of 2 cuz i TLDR it

Berserkers come at Steel. They replace Longswordsmen.
My response was definitely TLDR worthy.

Originally posted by Talamare:

They get no offensive bonus, which means that as fast as your assault is, any other civ can realistically defend against it.

True. But when going against the AI, you can really just wipe out all their resistance pretty fast (stupid AI). A human player would survive for a lot longer. Denmark relies on swiftness and speed. Without it, they can't do crud. Any Civ can defend against Denmark by keeping a good navy around and having strong coastal meatshields.

Originally posted by Talamare:

My point is tho that Denmark DOES care that they are falling behind in basically every other aspect.

Just imagine if you combined Assyria's UA with Denmark. You'd be 100% done.

Originally posted by Talamare:

Impressive response

That response took me a load of time for me to write (not including the time I needed to think it all out).

Originally posted by Talamare:

War Canoe basically makes them nearly invulnerable in the water.

I've never had an enemy navy try to sink my units before as Songhai, so I'm just gonna believe your word that they can take a huge beating.

[Shaunosaurus]

I think Songhai's bonus is overpowered

[Crim]

Originally posted by TheGaleRider:

Originally posted by Talamare:

War Canoe basically makes them nearly invulnerable in the water.

I've never had an enemy navy try to sink my units before as Songhai, so I'm just gonna believe your word that they can take a huge beating.

I decided to go ahead, test and check how War Canoe works.
War Canoe is actually insanely simple, it flat out doubles a units embarked defense strength.
Embarked Defense strength on the other hand, I did not do enough testing to understand exactly how it works, but I assume going to assume it is universal by Era. I did 2 separate tests, one that ended in the classical era, had 5 Embarked Strength. Industrial test had 10 Embarked Strength. As far as fighting the Embarked unit, the conclusion was roughly the same in either tests. Normal Embarked unit when attacked by the navy of that Era was absolutely wrecked, with the ship dealing about 70-80% damage, and taking only about 5-15% damage in return. Songhai's Embarked unit on the other hand, when attacked fought back very evenly, with both sides taking about 20-30% damage. The Songhai Embarked unit still took more damage than the ship, but it was close.