Best civ, best wonder, and best upgraded unit?

[wormhog]

By upgraded unit I mean specific to a civ, like panzers for Germany, or legions for Rome. My personal opinion is: Best civ- Japan, for their damaged unit bonus. Best wonder- statue of liberty, for the massive production buff and free policy. Best upgraded unit- probably Japanese zeros, their excellent at defence from bombers and don't require oil, which helps immensely if there is none in your territory. Let me know what you guys think.

[TheGaleRider]

Best Civ - Poland. 7 free social policies means a lot of possibilities. Practically the most flexible Civ in the game.
Best Unique Unit - Have to agree with the Zero. Those things are super Fighters. And I think they never become obsolete, so you don't have to build plain Jet Fighters and miss out on upgrading from a Zero to a Jet Fighter for a super Jet Fighter.
Best Wonder - Hanging Gardens. That wonder sets you for early game science and gets you massive population. Combine that with science buildings and Religious Community (+1% Production for each follower of religion, up to 15%) and you have a super-city. Statue of Liberty is really good, I'd have to agree. Too bad it's Freedom Ideology now. I like Order.

[Novu]

Best Civ is Zulu for their large and powerful early game army
Best UU is the Impi or Chu-ko-nu
Best wonder is Great Library as long as you don't play on Deity.
Zulu or China on a small Pangaea can wrap up a domination victory long before the Industrial era starts.

[zxcvbob]

I really like Stonehenge -- the faith per turn starting that early lets you found and enhance a religion while focusing on Patronage or Commerce instead of wasting policies on Piety. Even if you don't care about religion, just bank all the faith and use it to buy Great People in the later eras.

The best Unique Unit is the Assyrian siege tower. It is still useful in the atomic and information eras if you do it right: GDR or mechanized infantry plus an adjacent siege tower is comedy gold... although that Chinese crossbow upgraded to a 2-shot bazooka is pretty good too. :-)

I have no idea who the best civ is.

[JVteam]

Best civ- Babylon, Hands down. Incredible turtle, massive science, great for science victory.
Best Unit-Keshik, Mongol Hit-and-run is unstoppable. Move in 2, shoot, move out 2. Works every time. And I haven't even started on bonus Generals and xp...
Best Wonder- Over all though i think Forbidden palace, for the 2 delegates and a cut to unhappiness it provides are good for any victory type.

[abonamente]

- Shoshone: choose the bonuses from ruins, possibly giving you the edge from the very beginning; also never have to worry about any kind of resources (which is one of the cardinal rules in the game): grab them quickly and without building that many cities (another exceptionally important thing in this game), then keep them with the defence bonus in your own territory;

- The Pyramids: for the time needed to build 2 workers (critical in the beginning and so defining the entire following hundreds of turns game), you get two improved workers (with the bonus for improving tiles), while getting a precious early engineer slot too; with Liberty and its free worker and its own improving tiles bonus, depending on game's settings, you may never need to build any workers, ever, during the game; just boats; given its everlasting effect as the first wonder you build too, I cannot see any other in the game matching the Pyramids;

- The Ships of the Line: so powerful, they survive and upgrade 'till the end of times, ending up as fast, 4 tiles range artillery units with a huge line of sight.

All these fit my warmongering playstyle very well: get some early great and unique bonuses (locking them for other civs), then use them until the end. These put my civ on steroids from the very first turn. Whatever the other civs get later will be too little, too late to be harmful to my civilization, way ahead of everyone. Except the Immortal or Deity levels, of course :D I'm always behind when (and if) I manage to finish with the last one.

[Crim]

Best Civ - The one you enjoy, All Civs have their ups and their downs. There is no clear Civ that is superior in every regard. Thus there is no "Best" Civ

Best Unique Unit - Camel Archers, Hit and Run MONSTERS with a massive 21 Ranged Attack (Keshik with their pitiful 14 RA got nothing on them)

Best Wonder - Great Wall, It is literally the only Wonder that gets banned in MP, a Civ with a average sized Military can easily defend against an army twice its size. It makes you basically immune to aggression.

[JVteam]

Originally posted by Talamare:

Best Unique Unit - Camel Archers, Hit and Run MONSTERS with a massive 21 Ranged Attack (Keshik with their pitiful 14 RA got nothing on them)

You want to debate that? Keshiks have 1 more movement, so they can still hit and run in hilly terrain even with logistics. Also, Keshiks have bonuses to xp so they get to bonus range and logistics a lot quicker, and are constantly churning out khans.

And btw, Keshiks have 16 RA, not 14. This means only a 30% bonus and they are even with CAs, conviniently acquired through Barrage 1 and 2 (or accuracy) or just one and a Khan. If that wasn't enough, Logistics, gotten by many keshiks but few camel archers, will double the damage dealt. Don't mess with Khan.

[Crim]

Originally posted by jrocker314:

Originally posted by Talamare:

Best Unique Unit - Camel Archers, Hit and Run MONSTERS with a massive 21 Ranged Attack (Keshik with their pitiful 14 RA got nothing on them)

You want to debate that? Keshiks have 1 more movement, so they can still hit and run in hilly terrain even with logistics. Also, Keshiks have bonuses to xp so they get to bonus range and logistics a lot quicker, and are constantly churning out khans.

And btw, Keshiks have 16 RA, not 14. This means only a 30% bonus and they are even with CAs, conviniently acquired through Barrage 1 and 2 (or accuracy) or just one and a Khan. If that wasn't enough, Logistics, gotten by many keshiks but few camel archers, will double the damage dealt. Don't mess with Khan.

Forgive my erroneous number, however the durability of the Camel Archer is significantly higher than the Keshik. Test it in a hotseat game between yourself.
A Camel Archer will kill a Keshik in 2-3 shots, It would take a Keshik about 4-6 shots to kill a Camel Archer. The Keshik's slight increase in mobility will not help it escape a Camel Archer

The Khan is indeed a mighty general, extremely useful. However while your Khan helps the battlefield directly. In the meantime the Bazaar is providing ludicrous amount of gold to support a larger army and an excess amount of resource to be able to trade into either more money or more horses or more happiness.

[JVteam]

Originally posted by Talamare:

Originally posted by jrocker314:

You want to debate that? Keshiks have 1 more movement, so they can still hit and run in hilly terrain even with logistics. Also, Keshiks have bonuses to xp so they get to bonus range and logistics a lot quicker, and are constantly churning out khans.

And btw, Keshiks have 16 RA, not 14. This means only a 30% bonus and they are even with CAs, conviniently acquired through Barrage 1 and 2 (or accuracy) or just one and a Khan. If that wasn't enough, Logistics, gotten by many keshiks but few camel archers, will double the damage dealt. Don't mess with Khan.

Forgive my erroneous number, however the durability of the Camel Archer is significantly higher than the Keshik. Test it in a hotseat game between yourself.
A Camel Archer will kill a Keshik in 2-3 shots, It would take a Keshik about 4-6 shots to kill a Camel Archer. The Keshik's slight increase in mobility will not help it escape a Camel Archer

The Khan is indeed a mighty general, extremely useful. However while your Khan helps the battlefield directly. In the meantime the Bazaar is providing ludicrous amount of gold to support a larger army and an excess amount of resource to be able to trade into either more money or more horses or more happiness.

Don't be bringing the bazaar into this- this is about the best unit. Also, the durability is not much higher, 17 vs 15, and the keshik heals much faster than the camel if there is a khan around. Admittedly, if the Keshik has no promotions, the Camel will be stronger. However, with military tradition the Keshik will be gaining xp at twice the normal rate and getting promotions insanely quickly. The longer the war lasts, the more the battle swings in favor of the Keshik. Generally, the Arabs aren't going for a military victory and don't go into Honor, as they have tremendous boosts to trade and therefore go Freedom diplomatic.

[NottedOkenStaf]

Best Civ- I don't usually play conquest games, and that might the Zulus playable or give the Assyrians an edge. Capturing technologies along with cities was the big reason to take cities in Civ II. In Civ V I'm worried about crippling my social progress and making my people unhappy.

But in any game including conquest, I think Poland is the best. They will give you an entire free social policy tree! It's 7 bonuses very much like the bonuses that other civs get.

I'm fascinated by the Maya, but I haven't gotten around to playing yet. One Great Person of each type spaced 370 something years apart starting when you research Theology. You need to research Theology early. But it looks a lot like Poland to me, a whole series of bonuses on every subject.

But I think playing Poland, Assyria, or the Maya is cheating. I think they're ridiculously overpowered. I like playing the Eqyptians. Put it in Archipelago, Legendary Start resources, restart it a few times until you get Marble, take Tradition, build four cities, and pump out Wonders. There's really no point in building a library, lighthouse, temple, aqueduct, garden, or wall when you build the Wonder versions of them in just a few more turns.

You have to give a vote for Caesar. Go Liberty and some Honor. Build cities. Lots of them. Go Order or maybe Autocracy. Never build a Wonder at all (maybe the Hanging Garden, Statue of Zeus, and Great Lighthouse). Just build buildings. For the Glory of Rome!

I've played Babylon and thought it was great, but it turns out that's early burst advantage that doesn't really accumulate. If there were early game buildings that put specialists into science maybe the Babylonians would take off. But just one bonus Great Scientist gets you mad progress through the early years, and just isn't much of a bonus later on. The Maya waited a little longer for their Great Scientist, but then they got one of every other kind of Great person too.

Best Unit- I really choose civs for their abilities, and don't like the units for the civs I've played. Zulu Impi look awesome. Ships of the Line do too.

Best Wonder- I wish I could build them all. I think it might be more interesting to ask "which is your favorite Wonder for every era. Or for each victory.

But if there's one that it's all about, it's the Hanging Gardens. +6 Food +25% Great People in your capital! It's the gift that keeps on giving.

But I really like the Great Lighthouse. With that and the opening of Exploration, a fleet of 5 caravels can explore the whole world in no time.

[Crim]

Originally posted by jrocker314:

Originally posted by Talamare:

Forgive my erroneous number, however the durability of the Camel Archer is significantly higher than the Keshik. Test it in a hotseat game between yourself.
A Camel Archer will kill a Keshik in 2-3 shots, It would take a Keshik about 4-6 shots to kill a Camel Archer. The Keshik's slight increase in mobility will not help it escape a Camel Archer

The Khan is indeed a mighty general, extremely useful. However while your Khan helps the battlefield directly. In the meantime the Bazaar is providing ludicrous amount of gold to support a larger army and an excess amount of resource to be able to trade into either more money or more horses or more happiness.

Don't be bringing the bazaar into this- this is about the best unit. Also, the durability is not much higher, 17 vs 15, and the keshik heals much faster than the camel if there is a khan around. Admittedly, if the Keshik has no promotions, the Camel will be stronger. However, with military tradition the Keshik will be gaining xp at twice the normal rate and getting promotions insanely quickly. The longer the war lasts, the more the battle swings in favor of the Keshik. Generally, the Arabs aren't going for a military victory and don't go into Honor, as they have tremendous boosts to trade and therefore go Freedom diplomatic.

Hold on, You can repeatedly factor in the Khan but I cannot factor in the Bazaar?
Ah, You are saying Khan + Keshik is equal to Camel Archer? I suppose that is an acceptable comparison

I did some tests ingame instead of perpetually theory crafting

Both 100%, No buffs
Keshik deals 25 damage to Camel
Camel deals 35 damage to Keshik

If Keshik shoots first
-Camel wins with 21 HP remaining

If Camel shoots first
-Camel wins with 39 HP remaining

Since there is a damage range, the exact hp remaining would slide up and down, however I doubt it would change too significantly.

Do you want to know the sad part?
If I factored in buffs, Camel would win even harder because they have a higher base number
If I put them both under 35% buffs
Camel go from 21 to 28.35 (+7.35)
Keshik go from 16 to 21.6 (+5.6)

3 Full health Camels would deal an average of 105 damage, a confirmed kill basically
4 Full health Keshik would deal an average of 100 damage, a solid kill chance, but also a solid chance for the Camel to survive with a tiny bit of HP left

Additional Tests
100% HP, 15% terrain buff
Camel deals 39 damage to Keshik
Keshik deals 27 damage to Camel

100% HP, 15% terrain buff and 15% general buff to only attacker
Camel deals 43 damage to Keshik
Keshik deals 29 damage to Camel

[JVteam]

Originally posted by Talamare:

Originally posted by jrocker314:

Don't be bringing the bazaar into this- this is about the best unit. Also, the durability is not much higher, 17 vs 15, and the keshik heals much faster than the camel if there is a khan around. Admittedly, if the Keshik has no promotions, the Camel will be stronger. However, with military tradition the Keshik will be gaining xp at twice the normal rate and getting promotions insanely quickly. The longer the war lasts, the more the battle swings in favor of the Keshik. Generally, the Arabs aren't going for a military victory and don't go into Honor, as they have tremendous boosts to trade and therefore go Freedom diplomatic.

Hold on, You can repeatedly factor in the Khan but I cannot factor in the Bazaar?
Ah, You are saying Khan + Keshik is equal to Camel Archer? I suppose that is an acceptable comparison

I did some tests ingame instead of perpetually theory crafting

Both 100%, No buffs
Keshik deals 25 damage to Camel
Camel deals 35 damage to Keshik

If Keshik shoots first
-Camel wins with 21 HP remaining

If Camel shoots first
-Camel wins with 39 HP remaining

Since there is a damage range, the exact hp remaining would slide up and down, however I doubt it would change too significantly.

Do you want to know the sad part?
If I factored in buffs, Camel would win even harder because they have a higher base number
If I put them both under 35% buffs
Camel go from 21 to 28.35 (+7.35)
Keshik go from 16 to 21.6 (+5.6)

I'm saying Keshik army means Khan spam. That's an advantage they have over Camels. Also, part of my point is that Keshiks accumulate promotions extremely quickly, so with even buffs, yes, the camel would win, but even buffs will rarely happen ( if Khan knows what he's doing), as the Keshik would have many promotions.

It's been nice debating with you Talamare. I like this sort of thing.

[Crim]

Originally posted by jrocker314:

I'm saying Keshik army means Khan spam. That's an advantage they have over Camels. Also, part of my point is that Keshiks accumulate promotions extremely quickly, so with even buffs, yes, the camel would win, but even buffs will rarely happen ( if Khan knows what he's doing), as the Keshik would have many promotions.

It's been nice debating with you Talamare. I like this sort of thing.

Sadly Great Generals do not stack, neither does Khan's Medic Promotion
However, yes you will have an absolute wealth of Citadels.

Did you know that Keshik promotion accumulation is only 1 more experience per attack than Camel Archer (and any other ranged unit). The difference in promotion for the first promotion is only 1 attack/turn. The difference for the second promotion is more significant at 5 attacks/turns. However the important part is that because Camel has such a massive advantage in base attack, their promotions, even if there is less of them, are always more valuable.

Keshik with 45% vs Camel with only 30%... The comparison is still 23.2 vs 27.3
Hell, even Camel with only 15% he still holds the advantage at 23.2 vs 24.15

Indeed I enjoy debates as well

[JVteam]

My point is that a veteran Keshik army can hit-and-run the hell out of anything- and acquire many Khans and promotions in the process. That is part of the Keshik, the promotions and khan generation bonus, and that's why I factor it in. A Bazaar has no direct combat correlation with the Camel, so it isn't really part of the combat of the units.

Also, you said yourself that The great wall is the best wonder- but it doesn't stop a Keshik hit-and-run. It does, however, greatly impede Camel hit-and-run in a hilly terrain area, it turns it into just hit. Camels may be more powerful to begin with, but once the Keshik army gets going, they cannot be stopped. They are the masters of the Hit-and-run.

[Twelvefield]

Best Civ = Random
Best Wonder = the one you build 1 turn before the other player is about to finish theirs
Best Unit = Settler

I cannot imagine any debate on this, as I have truly picked out the best the game has to offer.