A Poorly Planned Policy for Exploration (Why is the Exploration Tree so weak?)

[Pilgrim_Bear]

Across the many beliefs, values, and norms adoptable as state-mandated policies, being a Marco Polo fanboy has to be the strangest and perhaps, in my opinion, least useful.

Seriously, does anyone know what the Exploration policy tree is even supposed to be used for? At best, the first few policies can help you get moving in the waters quicker if you miss Harald's fleets or Elizabeth's blitzing navy, and maybe the Louvre is worth a nab too if you got to Architecture late when going for a Cultural Victory. But otherwise, the rest of the tree seems pretty weak.

Extra Happiness or Production for making boats and fancy piers just doesn't feel as useful or impactful as say "Literally make a 500 Gold donation turn you into a City-State Ally in the early game" or "Get a free 15% combat bonus out of nowhere just from having your troops bro hug more." And the Finisher bonus isn't even that worth it for what may be tens of thousands of Culture: Allowing God to drop Admirals from heaven and some hidden ancient novels just sounds like its asking a lot for what is basically a minor nudge towards Domination of Cultural Victories.

Even the modding community seem to be confused as to what to give this tree. Many of the overhaul mods I've seen never really do much with Exploration but can flesh out Tradition or make Patronage seem less OP.

So I just want to open this discussion to see what you guys want out of this tree, or hell, make a completely new one if you want. Personally, I want Exploration to be a sort of late-game mix of Liberty and Patronage, with bonuses catering to swift land acquisition in foreign lands and better diplomatic catch-up mechanics to rival those rival, newly discovered Civs post World Congress that have like 200 Influence on the City-States stuck in the middle of nowhere.

[EmeraldBullet]

Perhaps it would be more useful if it had some sort of aviation bonuses as well, but I agree its generally a worthless policy tree as is.

[Pilgrim_Bear]

Originally posted by EmeraldBullet:

Perhaps it would be more useful if it had some sort of aviation bonuses as well, but I agree its generally a worthless policy tree as is.

In all honesty, I had forgotten aviation was a thing in this game before yesterday when I needed to build Airports for that extra Tourism. Yeah, aviation is also highly underutilized in this game.

[DutchDoofus]

I see it more as a filler policy unless ur really a coastal civ with multiple coastal city's to gain the benefits of the whole tree. Can get u 3 extra happiness per city that could come in handy if ur lacking luxury resources. Also the ''extra'' production u can get out of this is imo not to be seen as ''extra'' production but more of an make up deal for crappy coastal tiles.

And if ur playing island maps and want a good navy *(specially with some civs) this can be a good policy tree.

[tinisiyo]

Try NQ mod, or Lek mod, there are all policies reworked, and said exploration became really useful and viable strat.
Here are the changes to explo tree https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1a7nMHJzBbYbONBGpvP5CuYbbFUobDT3p7hsDs5E0T3w/edit
and here is a link to actual mod if you got interested https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CD_PFyqqlsJee9X5UDdQ0ml6rsLgCMSNFeCBAS2zNFA/edit

[Bullwinkle]

The extra happiness for making boats/piers can change a losing game into a winning game if you have a sudden massive drop in happiness due to your ideology suddenly becoming unpopular. And the extra movement can be huge, especially if you already are Elizabeth with the Great Lighthouse. I agree about the finisher though. Very weak.

[dcain3456]

Admirals would be far more useful if they could steal sea like Generals can steal clay.

[Bullwinkle]

Originally posted by dcain3456:

Admirals would be far more useful if they could steal sea like Generals can steal clay.

I think admirals are pretty useful, equal to generals. The fleet repair function used even one time can be game-changing, when used to full advantage.

[Pilgrim_Bear]

Originally posted by tinisiyo:

Try NQ mod, or Lek mod, there are all policies reworked, and said exploration became really useful and viable strat.
Here are the changes to explo tree https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1a7nMHJzBbYbONBGpvP5CuYbbFUobDT3p7hsDs5E0T3w/edit
and here is a link to actual mod if you got interested https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CD_PFyqqlsJee9X5UDdQ0ml6rsLgCMSNFeCBAS2zNFA/edit

Thanks, I'll check it out.

Originally posted by Bullwinkle:

The extra happiness for making boats/piers can change a losing game into a winning game if you have a sudden massive drop in happiness due to your ideology suddenly becoming unpopular. And the extra movement can be huge, especially if you already are Elizabeth with the Great Lighthouse. I agree about the finisher though. Very weak.

I would agree on the Happiness point now that I think about it. I always have tall cities, so I rarely suffer from much Unhappiness, but getting you out of that negative civ-wide Unhappy status is amazing.
Lizzie+ Great Lighthouse+ Exploration opener is actually the most OP combo in the game militarily, assuming you have a decent amount of coastal cities. You could move like 8 tiles, turn your cannons around, and have another ship cover your flanks fro the next turn. Absolutely frightening.

Originally posted by Bullwinkle:

Originally posted by dcain3456:

Admirals would be far more useful if they could steal sea like Generals can steal clay.

I think admirals are pretty useful, equal to generals. The fleet repair function used even one time can be game-changing, when used to full advantage.

Yeah, but you can't deny that having ocean forts sounds amazing.

[Grendalcat]

Sometimes Exploration is useful in a game where you are going for a cultural win, and a low number of accessible arch sites are revealed by the Louvre. The Hidden arch sites help you fill up your museums and other cultural buildings.

[Matthew]

I actually really like the first two policies. I rarely ever finish the entire thing though.

The amount of happiness is rather significant compared to other policy investments. Of course it has the additional requirement of needing to be on a coast, but minus that it is an easy extra source of happiness.

The production, while not exactly game changing, helps counter the idea of coastal cities having less tiles to work with. I typically play Liberty games with Order, so all that added up is a lot of production even if all you are working is a couple fish and a hill or two.

[Pilgrim_Bear]

Originally posted by Grendalcat:

Sometimes Exploration is useful in a game where you are going for a cultural win, and a low number of accessible arch sites are revealed by the Louvre. The Hidden arch sites help you fill up your museums and other cultural buildings.

I guess those do push you quite a bit towards Cultural Victory, but correct me if I'm wrong here, I seem to remember that the Hidden Antiquity Sites only produce Great Works of Writing, rather than Artifacts,which makes them incompatible with Museums. By this point in the game, I usually have two or three Great Writers just laying abouts because there's no more Amphitheaters of Wonders to build for them.

[Bullwinkle]

The real #1 military combo is not just Elizabeth + Great Lighthouse + Exploration. You gotta toss in Double Speed Promotions from the Honor tree to get the Full Monty. When those speedy ships get the double-fire promotion, forgetaboutit!

[Pilgrim_Bear]

Originally posted by Bullwinkle:

The real #1 military combo is not just Elizabeth + Great Lighthouse + Exploration. You gotta toss in Double Speed Promotions from the Honor tree to get the Full Monty. When those speedy ships get the double-fire promotion, forgetaboutit!

You can get Mobility and Blitz on different levels right? Wow, I've never had any ship survive beyond level 4, so that combo might be worth looking into.

[Grendalcat]

Originally posted by ClericMatthew1517:

Originally posted by Grendalcat:

Sometimes Exploration is useful in a game where you are going for a cultural win, and a low number of accessible arch sites are revealed by the Louvre. The Hidden arch sites help you fill up your museums and other cultural buildings.

I guess those do push you quite a bit towards Cultural Victory, but correct me if I'm wrong here, I seem to remember that the Hidden Antiquity Sites only produce Great Works of Writing, rather than Artifacts,which makes them incompatible with Museums. By this point in the game, I usually have two or three Great Writers just laying abouts because there's no more Amphitheaters of Wonders to build for them.

They can produce either one, seems to be about 50/50 in my experience.

[Pilgrim_Bear]

Originally posted by Grendalcat:

Originally posted by ClericMatthew1517:

I guess those do push you quite a bit towards Cultural Victory, but correct me if I'm wrong here, I seem to remember that the Hidden Antiquity Sites only produce Great Works of Writing, rather than Artifacts,which makes them incompatible with Museums. By this point in the game, I usually have two or three Great Writers just laying abouts because there's no more Amphitheaters of Wonders to build for them.

They can produce either one, seems to be about 50/50 in my experience.

Huh, never knew that. Maybe I just got ridiculously unlucky on that one run where I did unlock the entire tree. Four old stone tablets that you can't fit in your museums really ticked me off back then, Thans for the info