Korea: GL or HG in multiplayer?

[Glenps2]

As Korea is it more beneficial to rush the Great Library or go straight for the hanging gardens? In higher level single player and multiplayer it's very hard to get both, so I was wondering if one is drastically better than the other in terms of getting short and long term tech advantages, thanks!

[zxcvbob]

I don't play multiplayer, but in solo games when I play Korea I delay building a library until my population is up a bit, so I get more free beakers. IMHO, Hanging Gardens or Temple of Artemis or Petra or Colossus (use the extra cargo ship to send food to Seoul) are better than GL.

An interesting play with Korea would be to build a normal library first, then the GL -- sell the library when the GL is one turn away.

I wonder what happens if you build the same library or university over and over in the capital? (sell it, build it again) I just thought of that...

[Glenps2]

Thanks for the advice. I usually rush GL but I started to wonder if the HG would end up more beneficial down the road, and it sounds like that may be the case.

[Roarak]

Hanging Gardens is a better Science Wonder, GL gives you 1 free tech and a flat 3 science per turn, plus the GS point but 1 GS point by itself isn't worth much.

Hanging Gardens +6 food means your population grows much faster, and the later science buildings all provide Multipliers to your science output, which primarily comes from population.

Temple of Artemis is also better for the same reason, it substantially increases food, even more so as the game goes on.

[Drunk Demoman]

Originally posted by WTFohitsyou:

Hanging Gardens is a better Science Wonder, GL gives you 1 free tech and a flat 3 science per turn, plus the GS point but 1 GS point by itself isn't worth much.

Hanging Gardens +6 food means your population grows much faster, and the later science buildings all provide Multipliers to your science output, which primarily comes from population.

Temple of Artemis is also better for the same reason, it substantially increases food, even more so as the game goes on.

GL means you will get a GS long before anyone else may even have a building that provides GS pointsie unis, I sometimes rush oracle for that same reason, and if you can get both your science game will be top notch since by the time you get that GS, the extra SPT is usually a quarter of what you're putting out at that time. Now, HG isn't really that good of a wonder by itself. Yes, 6 food is great and all, but a cargo ship or caravan gives the same effect for MUCH MUCH less hammers. Artemis is morely for those who will spam out ranged units IE china or england, since you basically get a free unit after about 6 or 7 times, since you get the modifier that boosts your prodcution towards ranged units.

[Roarak]

Originally posted by A Black Square:

Originally posted by WTFohitsyou:

Hanging Gardens is a better Science Wonder, GL gives you 1 free tech and a flat 3 science per turn, plus the GS point but 1 GS point by itself isn't worth much.

Hanging Gardens +6 food means your population grows much faster, and the later science buildings all provide Multipliers to your science output, which primarily comes from population.

Temple of Artemis is also better for the same reason, it substantially increases food, even more so as the game goes on.

GL means you will get a GS long before anyone else may even have a building that provides GS pointsie unis, I sometimes rush oracle for that same reason, and if you can get both your science game will be top notch since by the time you get that GS, the extra SPT is usually a quarter of what you're putting out at that time. Now, HG isn't really that good of a wonder by itself. Yes, 6 food is great and all, but a cargo ship or caravan gives the same effect for MUCH MUCH less hammers. Artemis is morely for those who will spam out ranged units IE china or england, since you basically get a free unit after about 6 or 7 times, since you get the modifier that boosts your prodcution towards ranged units.

The real power of Temple of Artemis is the Food bonus, the ranged production bonus is a nice side effect. Temple of Artemis is one of the only two buildings in the game (The other being the Aztec floating gardens) that provides a Total Food bonus, as opposed to a food surplus bonus.

The way most food bonuses work is that, after a cities population eats, the left over food recieves the bonus (If you have 20 food and 8 pop, 20 food -16 from consumption is 4 surplus food)

With Temple of Artemis (and Floating Garden), the bonus is applied before food is consumed (20+10%=22 22-16=6, extra bonuses are then applied to the 6

This means that Temple provides more food than it actually seems like to ALL of your cities, and the 10% bonus gets more powerful as your cities get bigger

Temple of Artemis is also a lower priority wonder than GL or Sonehenge for the AI's which means you're mmore likely to get it on higher difficulties, it's one of the few early game wonders that you can get on Immortal

[Drunk Demoman]

Originally posted by WTFohitsyou:

Originally posted by A Black Square:

GL means you will get a GS long before anyone else may even have a building that provides GS pointsie unis, I sometimes rush oracle for that same reason, and if you can get both your science game will be top notch since by the time you get that GS, the extra SPT is usually a quarter of what you're putting out at that time. Now, HG isn't really that good of a wonder by itself. Yes, 6 food is great and all, but a cargo ship or caravan gives the same effect for MUCH MUCH less hammers. Artemis is morely for those who will spam out ranged units IE china or england, since you basically get a free unit after about 6 or 7 times, since you get the modifier that boosts your prodcution towards ranged units.

The real power of Temple of Artemis is the Food bonus, the ranged production bonus is a nice side effect. Temple of Artemis is one of the only two buildings in the game (The other being the Aztec floating gardens) that provides a Total Food bonus, as opposed to a food surplus bonus.

The way most food bonuses work is that, after a cities population eats, the left over food recieves the bonus (If you have 20 food and 8 pop, 20 food -16 from consumption is 4 surplus food)

With Temple of Artemis (and Floating Garden), the bonus is applied before food is consumed (20+10%=22 22-16=6, extra bonuses are then applied to the 6

This means that Temple provides more food than it actually seems like to ALL of your cities, and the 10% bonus gets more powerful as your cities get bigger

Temple of Artemis is also a lower priority wonder than GL or Sonehenge for the AI's which means you're mmore likely to get it on higher difficulties, it's one of the few early game wonders that you can get on Immortal

Yes, the food bonus is the primary reason people make it, as it's the only thing that gives a total food effect like you said (unless you play the aztecs), and not a surplus like the pantheon would. However like I said, many people will also primarily make it so they can spam out ranged units far faster than anyone else. And since ranged units are always the meta until planes come around, it can make a war based civ that much more deadly. That 15% bonus can turn that 2 turn timer into 1, giving that extra boost can turn the tide of a war or make you roll them into next sunday.

Also going back a bit, the main problem with building the GS isn't that the GS is bad. GS is one of the best wonders you can possibly get, especially early game, as it provides a library in the city that it's built in so you no longer need to build it in order to get the critical National college ASAP. The main problem that it has is you can't do anything else while you build it. You need a worker so you don't go unhappy and there aren't any CS's nearby to steal one? Too bad. Barbs pillaging your stuff? Too bad, you'll have to make a unit and that could cost you the wonder race, so most won't do it. You also won't be able to get the best settling spots, or worse, you'll let someone else forward settle you and have an insane staging ground to cap your city while blocking you from settling at all, or making it so your only possible places to settle are complete trash compared to what you could've had.

TL;DR GS is great if you have an insane defensive position like a one tile mountain pass with a hill on it and are fairly isolated relative to the rest of the civs, but other than that you are putting yourself at extreme risk. As the hammers needed to make the GS is typically around 9 to 10 ranged units, which will easily wreck your capitol.

[zxcvbob]

Originally posted by zxcvbob:

I don't play multiplayer, but in solo games when I play Korea I delay building a library until my population is up a bit, so I get more free beakers. IMHO, Hanging Gardens or Temple of Artemis or Petra or Colossus (use the extra cargo ship to send food to Seoul) are better than GL.

An interesting play with Korea would be to build a normal library first, then the GL -- sell the library when the GL is one turn away.

I wonder what happens if you build the same library or university over and over in the capital? (sell it, build it again) I just thought of that...

Well, I tried it. Korea cannot sell science buildings in the capital. After building the NC and a university, I was planning to sell the library and build another one. And another after that. I can do that in other cities (not that it would accomplish anything) but not in Seoul. The palace seems to lock it out.

[Drunk Demoman]

Originally posted by zxcvbob:

Originally posted by zxcvbob:

I don't play multiplayer, but in solo games when I play Korea I delay building a library until my population is up a bit, so I get more free beakers. IMHO, Hanging Gardens or Temple of Artemis or Petra or Colossus (use the extra cargo ship to send food to Seoul) are better than GL.

An interesting play with Korea would be to build a normal library first, then the GL -- sell the library when the GL is one turn away.

I wonder what happens if you build the same library or university over and over in the capital? (sell it, build it again) I just thought of that...

Well, I tried it. Korea cannot sell science buildings in the capital. After building the NC and a university, I was planning to sell the library and build another one. And another after that. I can do that in other cities (not that it would accomplish anything) but not in Seoul. The palace seems to lock it out.

Considering Korea's UA is that they get a giant tech boost from completing science buildings, FA would have to be pretty stupid to overlook the glaring exploit that would be used by everyone. Games would be pretty short though, since everyone would have nukes and stealth bombers by turn 50.

[Glenps2]

Okay so what if, as Korea, you build the GL, and you can either use the tech bonus and free tech to get the National College early or use them to work your way up to mathematics and grab the HG. Assuming you were sure you can finish the HG before anyone else, which would be more advantageous for your science?

[Drunk Demoman]

Originally posted by Glenps2:

Okay so what if, as Korea, you build the GL, and you can either use the tech bonus and free tech to get the National College early or use them to work your way up to mathematics and grab the HG. Assuming you were sure you can finish the HG before anyone else, which would be more advantageous for your science?

Considering HG gives the same bonus as a caravan but takes 3x the hammers, def college.

[Glenps2]

Originally posted by A Black Square:

Originally posted by Glenps2:

Okay so what if, as Korea, you build the GL, and you can either use the tech bonus and free tech to get the National College early or use them to work your way up to mathematics and grab the HG. Assuming you were sure you can finish the HG before anyone else, which would be more advantageous for your science?

Considering HG gives the same bonus as a caravan but takes 3x the hammers, def college.

Would you say that the Temple of Artemis is stronger than the Hanging Gardens, assuming your capital starts near fresh water for gardens?

[Drunk Demoman]

Hanging gardens has no pre req. You can build it anywhere. Also, you get a garden reguardless of whether you're on a river or not.

[zxcvbob]

If my capital does not have fresh water (happens more often than you might think) I prioritize HG for the garden. If my 2nd city has lots of production but no food, I might build the HG there. HG is safer than ToA because only the Tradition civs can build it.

If my capital does have fresh water and plenty of food, ToA is better and I skip HG. If my cities are coastal, I've started beelining the Colossus and using that cargo ship just to send food to the capital. That's more food than HG plus you get the gold bonuses, and you have the option to switch it to production for important wonders or projects, But you gotta protect that cargo ship from barbarians and that can be tough in the early game.

[Glenps2]

Originally posted by zxcvbob:

If my capital does not have fresh water (happens more often than you might think) I prioritize HG for the garden. If my 2nd city has lots of production but no food, I might build the HG there. HG is safer than ToA because only the Tradition civs can build it.

If my capital does have fresh water and plenty of food, ToA is better and I skip HG. If my cities are coastal, I've started beelining the Colossus and using that cargo ship just to send food to the capital. That's more food than HG plus you get the gold bonuses, and you have the option to switch it to production for important wonders or projects, But you gotta protect that cargo ship from barbarians and that can be tough in the early game.

This is all very useful information, thank you!

[Drunk Demoman]

Honestly I feel the free gardens is the highlight of HG. Yeah the +6 food is good and all, but as mentioned a single caravan achieves the same thing for much less. The big highlight is that you get a garden even if that city is not on a river. So say your capitol is not on a river, well, you still get the garden. And since you typically spawn most of you great people at your capitol, you now have a 50% bonus to spawning speed instead of just 25% from the national epic. I've always found the +6 food negligable, as you typically get that wonder when you don't exactly have that much happiness to throw around, so it may end up actually being a detriment to have your cap explode in population as it leaves the rest of your cities to stagnate for a while.