Should the game 'explain' biome progression or let the player discover it?

[Eightball]

Just curious as to what most think.

I often see posts from people concerned the game does not more explicitly (in some manner) explain to players how biome progression works and where they should be exploring at any point in time.

The argument being this would prevent a new player fresh out of the Meadows/Black Forest from stumbling into a biome they are unprepared for, lose all their gear and ultimately become frustrated enough to put the game down entirely.

On the other hand there are those who feel (and I am one) the game is fine as is in that 'discovering' biomes and the threat each poses is an essential part of games such as this. You explore, encounter threats and quickly learn if you are equipped to handle the area. If not you continue to explore until you find a biome you can currently handle.

It reminds me of how early MMOs worked (e.g. EQ or Ultima Online). You could go anywhere, but that in no way meant you could survive anywhere. And if you died to a Griffin while running across the Commonlands and could not recover your corpse then you chalked it up to a lesson learned, put it in your book of grudges and went somewhere else to gear up so you could come back someday and put the smack-down on Mr. Griffin!

So should the game lead you or should it set you free to learn on your own?

[Cougarific]

I mean Hugin warns you about your first foray into the Black Forest - makes sense that he should put in a reappearance for every new biome.

Each warning should be different and contain some biome-oriented specifics if possible.

[Atma]

Hugin: u gon' die.

[LordOfTheBread]

I hope it stays as is with hugin telling you about Black forest and leave you to discover the rest.

We have enough games taking players for oblivious todlers that need hand holding.

[daemian2k]

No, discovering stuff on your own is part of the experience.

[Mordtziel]

Hugin should definitely appear in each biome and explain something about it, maybe even make a remark about how prepared you seem for the region (some calculation based on skill levels, gear, weapons being carried). The stones could also be a bit more explicit about the regions for the corresponding bosses.

Non-linear exploration is great and all, but this game definitely has a pretty linear, expected progression system. It's not quite like those oldschool games where you could technically still kill stuff and accomplish something by being in those regions. Like you can't enter the crypts without killing 2nd, you can't find silver (or at least highly unlikely) without killing 3rd, can't do anything with the metal from the plains until you've killed 4th. The oldschool games didn't necessarily need you to do anything in particular order, this game does.

[Drakeeper]

The location of each boss already does a pretty good job at hinting at that, I'd say. There's no need for extra hand holding.

[Mordtziel]

Originally posted by Darkeeper:

The location of each boss already does a pretty good job at hinting at that, I'd say. There's no need for extra hand holding.

lol not even close...

"His antlers are branches of iron. They crack the rocks and bring down mountains. His hooves are the sound of thunder. His voice a howling a gale."

Doesn't mention anywhere. We only know his location because of the nearby stone that puts a location on the map.

"First of the Forest, King-in-the-Wood. Lord over those who dwell at his feet. His roots will grow where cities once stood. Their blood his wine, their flesh his meat."

Sure it mentions a forest, but there are trees everywhere and if a player hasn't seen a specific region called the Black Forest, they wouldn't know. The meadows also have "cities" strewn about them whereas the Black Forest does not.

"Wanderer, look to your feet. That tread upon our tomb. One thousand bones without their meat. Will drag you to your doom."

So what? I can dig anywhere and find him? We both know that's not true. That doesn't hint at all about where he is.

"Black wings across the moon and sun. Down from the mountain our mother comes. Her weeping tears will fall like rain. Her voice will call us home again."

This would imply the boss is actually not in the mountains.

"Long ages past, he wore a crown. Beneath a blood-red sky. Now naught is left of all he was. But his spirit cannot die."

This doesn't mention any kind of location at all! C'mon now.

Literally only one of these even remotely works for describing locations to find the bosses. It gives you an order to kill them in, but not where to find them, and thus, doesn't explain the biome progression.

[Feto]

The problem with how it is now is that it's way easier to find plains than mountains. And most mountains if've found have plains right next to them and everything oneshots you if you are running on iron gear.

[Raviel]

You start at meddows. Nerby is usually only black forest.
After killing elder i got attacked from swamp, event, pretty clear that swapt boss is looking for senpai's attention ;)
After that i guess again boss events and deathquitos persuading to look elsewhere..

Seems fairly clear.. than again some people beat plains with troll armor it seems, whichout any silver. So it might be interchangable.. definetely if not playing solo.

[jonnin]

it does pretty well.
IIRC the crow tells you to make stuff, build a home, stay out of the next area until done in the first one, to kill the boss and hang up his head. That about covers it atm.

[Simon Bar Sinister]

So this is a brutal survival game based in being in purgatory and it needs more hand holding? Players die. Ok. Lose a little time. Isn't there supposed to be a penalty for dying?

Sounds like this game needs to be ported to minecraft as a mod so all the whining will go away from this one.

[Pitchforque]

Hugin popping up every time we enter a new biome isn't the answer. I remember killing bonemass and picking up wishbone, and hugin explicitly telling me it will help me in the mountains. That should be the form of guidance. I can't remember if he mentions the next biome after every boss, but if not, he should.

[{O|G} Erik the Red]

Eikthyr drops the antler for mining in the Black Forest. The Elder drops a literal Swamp key. Bonemass drops a wishbone to look for silver and treasure, which may not be so clear (Edit: or Hugin tells you it's use in the mountains...), but likely the player has gotten to wonder about climbing some mountains, and the frost resistance potion should already have been revealed by then too, without which it is unlikely to have been explored yet due to the freezing cold.

The Plains is the only biome that doesn't have a clear progression indicator or warning, other than most likely stumbling into before hand and getting wiped out by the endgame mobs. But in that case it does seem intentionally misleading to have the plains be an inconspicuous valley of death. But the Dragon tears dropped by Moder in the Mountains gateway the progression to the plains with the necessary crafting tables needed to be used there.

[N0ma13]

I don't think it doesn't already.
Starting point tells you the first boss location, in the biome you're in.
As you explore and find the black forest you get a warning 'new biome, scary, danger'.

This sets the theme. New Biome, Scary, Danger.

Black forest boss gives an item that has a pretty descriptive name.

You're going to find either mountains, swamps, or plains next - likely.

Item name fits one of the above the most.

The next stage is less intuitive but you respawn so it's not like it takes much.

[Mordtziel]

Originally posted by Raviel:

You start at meddows. Nerby is usually only black forest.
After killing elder i got attacked from swamp, event, pretty clear that swapt boss is looking for senpai's attention ;)
After that i guess again boss events and deathquitos persuading to look elsewhere..

Seems fairly clear.. than again some people beat plains with troll armor it seems, whichout any silver. So it might be interchangable.. definetely if not playing solo.

Problem with depending on the raids for indicators is that they can be incredibly rare. Personally, I didn't even know raids were a thing until like day 150 or something when the very first one triggered for me. If you think they should be the indicator, then there should probably be a guaranteed trigger after each boss. But you'd still need to know that the raid comes from that region. If after killing Elder, you just get raided by skeletons, you'd have no clue that indicates swamp as they can appear in the Black Forest too.

And let's not forget that right now, there's 9 biomes, but 5 bosses. Only one (two?) of those biomes are completely empty. And let's also not forget, that we don't know what we can't get from each biome until we're basically there. Starting out, you don't know that you can't mine. You don't know how to get the key for the crypts. You don't know that silver is a thing. And you definitely don't know what to do with black metal scraps when you first get them unless you specifically laser focused on each boss individually.