Counter to AI hordes of hoplites?

[Head]

How in the hell am I supposed to counter hordes of full stacked hoplite armies with Carthage? Attribute wise only the Sacred Bands can stand a 1v1 against normal greek hoplites (and they take 2 turns to complete), but even if I charge them from behind and/or side with cav (usual hammer-anvil tactic), most of it gets destroyed (I guess there must be the spirit of Pericles killing my horses with a stg44 or some ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of that kind).

I understand that the AI is braindead, but did they touch the hoplites somewhat? I don't remember having all these problems with hoplites and greeks in the original.

Any help or suggestion is most welcomed!

[工口兔]

There's no good way for Carthage to deal with late game Greeks in the battle field. Not because Greeks are OP but just because Carthage roster sucks except Sacred Bands and elephants, and neither is good against armored hoplites swarm.
On the other hand, I assume you already destroyed Rome factions and owns most provinces in the west, you should be rich af at this point. You can assassinate their generals and bribe out some of their armies to hold the front line. Then do a landing in Greece to cut off their production. AI is incapable to defend their backyard from cross sea raid when the front line is far away.

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron Raptor]

Originally posted by 工口兔:

There's no good way for Carthage to deal with late game Greeks in the battle field. Not because Greeks are OP but just because Carthage roster sucks except Sacred Bands and elephants, and neither is good against armored hoplites swarm.
On the other hand, I assume you already destroyed Rome factions and owns most provinces in the west, you should be rich af at this point. You can assassinate their generals and bribe out some of their armies to hold the front line. Then do a landing in Greece to cut off their production. AI is incapable to defend their backyard from cross sea raid when the front line is far away.

Sacred Band handily defeats Armored Hoplites. Though on VH the +7 attack of course cancels out that advantage, but yours would still have more XP to compensate

[Head]

Originally posted by 工口兔:

There's no good way for Carthage to deal with late game Greeks in the battle field. Not because Greeks are OP but just because Carthage roster sucks except Sacred Bands and elephants, and neither is good against armored hoplites swarm.
On the other hand, I assume you already destroyed Rome factions and owns most provinces in the west, you should be rich af at this point. You can assassinate their generals and bribe out some of their armies to hold the front line. Then do a landing in Greece to cut off their production. AI is incapable to defend their backyard from cross sea raid when the front line is far away.

Thank you for your answer,

Yes, I took care of the Romans pretty fast, but I am far from being rich because I keep getting backstabbed by Gauls sending me full stacks of useless warbands and because I am forced to keep fully garrisoned cities in Iberia (yeah, I am looking at you Cordoba), so I hardly get 15-17 k per turn and it's not enough to bribe a single army fully stacked with armoured hoplites apparently.

I think my greatest mistake was to overestimate the strength of Carthage's roster compared to the late-game greek one, as you said. I suppose I should've went for Greece right after Italy instead of taking Iberia and Northern Africa.

[Head]

Originally posted by |Sith|Galvanized Iron:

Originally posted by 工口兔:

There's no good way for Carthage to deal with late game Greeks in the battle field. Not because Greeks are OP but just because Carthage roster sucks except Sacred Bands and elephants, and neither is good against armored hoplites swarm.
On the other hand, I assume you already destroyed Rome factions and owns most provinces in the west, you should be rich af at this point. You can assassinate their generals and bribe out some of their armies to hold the front line. Then do a landing in Greece to cut off their production. AI is incapable to defend their backyard from cross sea raid when the front line is far away.

Sacred Band handily defeats Armored Hoplites. Though on VH the +7 attack of course cancels out that advantage, but yours would still have more XP to compensate

The problem is that to get a fully stacked army of sacred bands it would take me more or less 10 to 20 turns, as not all my cities can produce them. During that time I would have to deal with 5 or 7 fully stacked greek armies invading Italy.

My biggest problem is the fact that cavalry seems to do nothing against them, even though I am flanking them.

Thanks for the answer though.

[Jambie Lionheart]

Originally posted by Head:

How in the hell am I supposed to counter hordes of full stacked hoplite armies with Carthage? Attribute wise only the Sacred Bands can stand a 1v1 against normal greek hoplites (and they take 2 turns to complete), but even if I charge them from behind and/or side with cav (usual hammer-anvil tactic), most of it gets destroyed (I guess there must be the spirit of Pericles killing my horses with a stg44 or some ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of that kind).

I understand that the AI is braindead, but did they touch the hoplites somewhat? I don't remember having all these problems with hoplites and greeks in the original.

Any help or suggestion is most welcomed!

If they're spamming hoplites then the best counter is to hold them with your own phalanx units, kill off any cavalry they have and get some archers on their flanks. You can also somewhat achieve this by placing your archers or other missile troops on your left side flank, behind your front line troops. Fire in to the enemies opposite flank (which is their right side flank from your perspective). This can be really devestating to a phalanx unit and will weaken them quickly. After tha,use your cavalry. But don't aim to kill, aim to rout. Do that all most of the phalanx troops will die in the rout and hopefully before they do any significant damage to your own forces. IF you have elephants, with a mix of other cavalry, you can park your elephants behind enemy phalanxes. The morale drops from that position with elephants is significant. They usually hang the general or captain unit back in reseve behind the mainline. If you weaken and kill that one, you'll get an easy chain rout.

[Head]

Originally posted by }P.B{ CtMurphy:

Originally posted by Head:

How in the hell am I supposed to counter hordes of full stacked hoplite armies with Carthage? Attribute wise only the Sacred Bands can stand a 1v1 against normal greek hoplites (and they take 2 turns to complete), but even if I charge them from behind and/or side with cav (usual hammer-anvil tactic), most of it gets destroyed (I guess there must be the spirit of Pericles killing my horses with a stg44 or some ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of that kind).

I understand that the AI is braindead, but did they touch the hoplites somewhat? I don't remember having all these problems with hoplites and greeks in the original.

Any help or suggestion is most welcomed!

If they're spamming hoplites then the best counter is to hold them with your own phalanx units, kill off any cavalry they have and get some archers on their flanks. You can also somewhat achieve this by placing your archers or other missile troops on your left side flank, behind your front line troops. Fire in to the enemies opposite flank (which is their right side flank from your perspective). This can be really devestating to a phalanx unit and will weaken them quickly. After tha,use your cavalry. But don't aim to kill, aim to rout. Do that all most of the phalanx troops will die in the rout and hopefully before they do any significant damage to your own forces. IF you have elephants, with a mix of other cavalry, you can park your elephants behind enemy phalanxes. The morale drops from that position with elephants is significant. They usually hang the general or captain unit back in reseve behind the mainline. If you weaken and kill that one, you'll get an easy chain rout.

Thank you for your suggestions, but I think there are 2 problems. A full stack army of armoured hoplites basically almost insta-routes any kind of infantry I lay before them, the only one keeping up for more than 2 minutes being Poeni Infatry and sometimes the Lybian spearmen. I kill the general, I don't, it changes nothing because my line infantry simply can't stand in line and will get routed. That means that my skirmishers will at most get a couple of shots in and then be forced to run-and-stop for the rest of the battle as no line of infantry will be able to defend them. The second problem comes with the fact that you can't simply outflank a 20+ stack of hoplites with archers, because they'll simply detach a couple of troops to chase them away while the main of the force is grinding my infantry line to do some saucy, tasty carthaginian sausage. If my infantry would be able to hold a line for a reasonable amount of time, your tactic would be totally feasible (being that cav charges from behind are mostly useless against so many hoplites).

The fact is, when I used to play with the Romans I sometimes got to fight against a late game Greek faction, but with the legions, being as versatile as they are, it was incredibly easy. As somebody else above said, I guess I'll have to [hope to] bribe them and/or trying to use catapults.

Thank you anyway, mate.

[Jambie Lionheart]

Originally posted by Head:

Originally posted by }P.B{ CtMurphy:

If they're spamming hoplites then the best counter is to hold them with your own phalanx units, kill off any cavalry they have and get some archers on their flanks. You can also somewhat achieve this by placing your archers or other missile troops on your left side flank, behind your front line troops. Fire in to the enemies opposite flank (which is their right side flank from your perspective). This can be really devestating to a phalanx unit and will weaken them quickly. After tha,use your cavalry. But don't aim to kill, aim to rout. Do that all most of the phalanx troops will die in the rout and hopefully before they do any significant damage to your own forces. IF you have elephants, with a mix of other cavalry, you can park your elephants behind enemy phalanxes. The morale drops from that position with elephants is significant. They usually hang the general or captain unit back in reseve behind the mainline. If you weaken and kill that one, you'll get an easy chain rout.

Thank you for your suggestions, but I think there are 2 problems. A full stack army of armoured hoplites basically almost insta-routes any kind of infantry I lay before them, the only one keeping up for more than 2 minutes being Poeni Infatry and sometimes the Lybian spearmen. I kill the general, I don't, it changes nothing because my line infantry simply can't stand in line and will get routed. That means that my skirmishers will at most get a couple of shots in and then be forced to run-and-stop for the rest of the battle as no line of infantry will be able to defend them. The second problem comes with the fact that you can't simply outflank a 20+ stack of hoplites with archers, because they'll simply detach a couple of troops to chase them away while the main of the force is grinding my infantry line to do some saucy, tasty carthaginian sausage. If my infantry would be able to hold a line for a reasonable amount of time, your tactic would be totally feasible (being that cav charges from behind are mostly useless against so many hoplites).

The fact is, when I used to play with the Romans I sometimes got to fight against a late game Greek faction, but with the legions, being as versatile as they are, it was incredibly easy. As somebody else above said, I guess I'll have to [hope to] bribe them and/or trying to use catapults.

Thank you anyway, mate.

Yeah, I remember Carthoginian infantry were pretty cowardly last time I played them too.

Are you letting them come to you, or are you going to them for the attacks? There's still plenty of options to go through. Someone said at some pointin the thread they were in Itally, right? So I'd assume you were on the defensive.

[LuNi]

Bribe them. If there are generals in the armies assassinate them first.

Carthaginian troops are utter trash outside of like 2-3 units.

[Head]

Originally posted by }P.B{ CtMurphy:

Originally posted by Head:

Thank you for your suggestions, but I think there are 2 problems. A full stack army of armoured hoplites basically almost insta-routes any kind of infantry I lay before them, the only one keeping up for more than 2 minutes being Poeni Infatry and sometimes the Lybian spearmen. I kill the general, I don't, it changes nothing because my line infantry simply can't stand in line and will get routed. That means that my skirmishers will at most get a couple of shots in and then be forced to run-and-stop for the rest of the battle as no line of infantry will be able to defend them. The second problem comes with the fact that you can't simply outflank a 20+ stack of hoplites with archers, because they'll simply detach a couple of troops to chase them away while the main of the force is grinding my infantry line to do some saucy, tasty carthaginian sausage. If my infantry would be able to hold a line for a reasonable amount of time, your tactic would be totally feasible (being that cav charges from behind are mostly useless against so many hoplites).

The fact is, when I used to play with the Romans I sometimes got to fight against a late game Greek faction, but with the legions, being as versatile as they are, it was incredibly easy. As somebody else above said, I guess I'll have to [hope to] bribe them and/or trying to use catapults.

Thank you anyway, mate.

Yeah, I remember Carthoginian infantry were pretty cowardly last time I played them too.

Are you letting them come to you, or are you going to them for the attacks? There's still plenty of options to go through. Someone said at some pointin the thread they were in Itally, right? So I'd assume you were on the defensive.

Yup, I'm trying to stop them in Croatia and to buy enough time to transport some elite troops from Carthage to Italy. Usually I let them come to me to get some shots in before getting ♥♥♥♥♥♥. I'll try to see if I can snitch an army in Greece to capture some cities and then I don't know, I'll have to hope that fully upgraded elephants are enough.

[Head]

Originally posted by LuNi:

Bribe them. If there are generals in the armies assassinate them first.

Carthaginian troops are utter trash outside of like 2-3 units.

I don't have enough money to bribe even the normal armies without a general even though I have 20k, more or less. I'll try to spare even more money to bribe some armies and spawn assassins.

[Mayer]

I don't remember having these difficulties as Carthage, but then again I didn't fully invade Greece, destroyed Gaul and kept Iberia under control and profitable.
I killed armored hoplites with punians and skirmishers, I think.

[Mic]

creatin archers or really just archer spam, use some cav to turn them and let the archers mow em down since theyre super ez to kill from the side and back w arrows. missle cav is also incredibly cheesy but hey so is a death spear formation idk hope dis helps

[Mic]

but make sure u have them surrounded to make sure the archers dont get flanked, creatins can be a real beach to have to track down and rerecruit

[Vicboss]

Cavalry or in your case elephants. The key to fighting phalanx armies is recognizing they are incredibly immobile. Exploit that to your advantage, use mobile troops to collapse on one side of the enemy line and avoid the other half entirely. When the rout starts, roll up the flanks with cav charges and keep exploiting the holes that appear in their lines.

[Jambie Lionheart]

Originally posted by Head:

Originally posted by }P.B{ CtMurphy:

Yeah, I remember Carthoginian infantry were pretty cowardly last time I played them too.

Are you letting them come to you, or are you going to them for the attacks? There's still plenty of options to go through. Someone said at some pointin the thread they were in Itally, right? So I'd assume you were on the defensive.

Yup, I'm trying to stop them in Croatia and to buy enough time to transport some elite troops from Carthage to Italy. Usually I let them come to me to get some shots in before getting ♥♥♥♥♥♥. I'll try to see if I can snitch an army in Greece to capture some cities and then I don't know, I'll have to hope that fully upgraded elephants are enough.

If you can't fight them in your own cities, you probably won't be able to kill them in their own cities either. I've seen Spartan hoplites (next ones up the food chain from Armour hoplites) crush entire armies of principe's a couple times in their no rout plaza spot.

A few other players touched on it already, but you've really gotta play on their immobility. They're a very tunnel visioned type of unit. You get them from any where but the front with the right unit and they'll crumble every time.

Another option you might have is using a LOT of missile troops. You don't seem very experienced, so you can't do it the other way I described earlier, but you can makes 16 units strong missile armies plus 4 units of cav (high tier preferably) to cover them against any enemy cavalry. You'll lose every battle unitl the very last one that wipes out the other army. Just empty your ammo on enemy units and retreat either as soon as you run outofammo or until it becomes otherwise impossible to avoid melee. You can use, archers,Javi's, missile cav,whatever you want. Just hit them using gorrila tactics.

and always make sure you retreat fromthe first fight. If they come after you during their turn for a second fight,you'll lose the army, but you'll deal incredible damage to their numbers. Depending on your production capacity you could whittle down a lone army in two turns, maybe even the one battle if you reallly knew what you were doing with 'em. but that's being too optimistic -.- just hit'n'run. Then you can send out the bigger guns. The AI willprobably change it's army comp at least a little to match your own change. That's when you hit them hard and get super aggressive by taking their cities and start with both Athens and sparta. Timing in that plan is everything though. It's either thator you need to lower your difficulty setting and start again :)