What is the weakest Roman faction?

[CheeseMerchant]

So i wanted to start a discussion about which of the three Roman factions is actually the weakest.

I think it is the Julii. They have by far the weakest starting position.My argument for this is that the senate missions forces them to take over Gaul first, which compared to other areas like Greece and North Africa has settlements that are relatively poor. causing you to have a weaker early game economy overall compared to the other Roman factions. They also have no easy to reach wonders at the start. unlike the Brutii. The only half decent territory the Julii can expand into in the Mid-game is Spain. Which as a region overall is still less wealthy then Greece or North Africa. Which you grab pretty early with the other Roman factions.

In contrast the Scipii can take over the rich regions of Carthage and after that just push straigth for Egypt to become a Economic powerhouse. The Brutii has a cake walk in Greece as well and can take over wealthy and developed settlements over there and has access to a couple of wonders that sit close by in both Greece and Anatolia.

Besides the Julii being the best looking faction (Roman Red FTW) they are just weaker compared to the other Roman factions. There is simply nothing the Julii does better. only worse.

[Captain Custard]

The Senate

[Kayeka]

I'd say the real issue is in the temples the factions have access to. The Scippii get Vulcan, which means better weapons, and the Brutii get Mars, which means more experience. Out of the box, both the Brutii and Scipii troops are just better than those of the Julii. The Julii might catch up eventually by utilising their temples to Ceres and gain access to higher-level units before the others, but by that time you would've conquered half the world with any of the three factions and it no longer matters.

But in the end, it's all pretty granular. The Roman factions are pretty darn OP anyway, so what's an experience level more or less? Just pick whichever faction you want based on what kind of campaign you're aiming for.

[Delivery Boi]

In order from weakest to strongest: Senate, Julii, Scipii, Brutii. But really the strongest is whichever one is being played by the player (obviously). For instance in my Julii campaigns I like to rush for Greece and Carthage before the other roman factions get there, which makes starting positions obsolete.

In my recent Brutii campaign the Julii managed to take southern Gaul and all of Spain, while the Scipii just sat around twiddling their thumbs because they were too scared to fight Carthage's mighty army of 20 skirmishers and some elephant at Lilybaeum. And the ai definitely still has problems invading over water so that probably contributed to their idleness.

[CheeseMerchant]

Originally posted by I speak for the Trees:

In order from weakest to strongest: Senate, Julii, Scipii, Brutii. But really the strongest is whichever one is being played by the player (obviously). For instance in my Julii campaigns I like to rush for Greece and Carthage before the other roman factions get there, which makes starting positions obsolete.

In my recent Brutii campaign the Julii managed to take southern Gaul and all of Spain, while the Scipii just sat around twiddling their thumbs because they were too scared to fight Carthage's mighty army of 20 skirmishers and some elephant at Lilybaeum. And the ai definitely still has problems invading over water so that probably contributed to their idleness.

ofcourse the senate is the weakest. while technically a Roman faction, they are not playable in the default game. so i don't think they are relevant in this context.

Most people follow the senate missions, Mainly for additional cash and senate positions. and so does the AI. That is why i believe taking the power of the starting positions into account is important. especially since its one of the few things different between the factions.

I have to say that the Scipii and the Brutii are almost equal. Both have great starting positions and the Scipii can rush for Egypt effectively. But the Brutii wins out with the wonders it can take in Greece very early. and they always seem to conquer half of the map if an AI controls them.

[FireAgain]

In sheer combat power/value of units: Julii because they gain nothing of value from temples. Scipii in the middle, Brutii is the strongest. (Honorable mention to the SPQR who get stronger versions of standard units, but only a single army)

In the hands of the AI: Scipii are the weakest as they rarely get across to Africa/Carthage in a timely manner, and most of the land around there is useless anyway. Brutii because the Greeks are stronger opponents and can often win the fight at the start when war is first declared which massively slows them down. Julii at the top because their main opponent Gaul gets absolutely rolled from every angle and they tend to get larger than the other factions quite reliably and quickly because of how much stronger Romans are compared to Barbarians.

In the hands of a player: Scipii weakest thanks to a dull starting position that ends up with a fight in Egypt + a sprawling empire (the better play is to go and invade Greece instead of wasting time in Africa). Julii thanks to easy neighbours to conquer insanely fast as well as the ease of sniping the natural expansions of Brutii and Scipii factions while being very safe, then Brutii for the best troops and the fact that the player isn't likely to struggle against Greeks like the AI and therefore gets a very rich area with great wonders very early.

[androrix]

^^^^^
Fairly definitive answer. Well done.

[Rimril]

Initially they are almost the same, but IMO the Julii are at a clear disadvantage since both the Gauls and Germania are so much stronger than all the roman factions. You can investigate this by starting a new game. After a couple of turns, open the faction summary window and select the faction status sheet. Then select the "Top 5 factions" graphs. The overall and military standings of the romans are way below those of the biggest adversaries.

Early in the game the Scipii and Brutii are not at risk of invasion from overseas while the Julii must spend more resources on defence, stifling economic and technological growth. There could be some random factors governing AI behaviour involved, i.e. each time you start a new game it might develop differently.

[Captain Custard]

Originally posted by Rimril:

Initially they are almost the same, but IMO the Julii are at a clear disadvantage since both the Gauls and Germania are so much stronger than all the roman factions. You can investigate this by starting a new game. After a couple of turns, open the faction summary window and select the faction status sheet. Then select the "Top 5 factions" graphs. The overall and military standings of the romans are way below those of the biggest adversaries.

Early in the game the Scipii and Brutii are not at risk of invasion from overseas while the Julii must spend more resources on defence, stifling economic and technological growth. There could be some random factors governing AI behaviour involved, i.e. each time you start a new game it might develop differently.

Early game 90% of Gaul armies are made up almost entirely of pokeyboybands, Julii armies cut through them like a hot knife through butter.

[CheeseMerchant]

Originally posted by FireAgain:

In sheer combat power/value of units: Julii because they gain nothing of value from temples. Scipii in the middle, Brutii is the strongest. (Honorable mention to the SPQR who get stronger versions of standard units, but only a single army)

In the hands of the AI: Scipii are the weakest as they rarely get across to Africa/Carthage in a timely manner, and most of the land around there is useless anyway. Brutii because the Greeks are stronger opponents and can often win the fight at the start when war is first declared which massively slows them down. Julii at the top because their main opponent Gaul gets absolutely rolled from every angle and they tend to get larger than the other factions quite reliably and quickly because of how much stronger Romans are compared to Barbarians.

In the hands of a player: Scipii weakest thanks to a dull starting position that ends up with a fight in Egypt + a sprawling empire (the better play is to go and invade Greece instead of wasting time in Africa). Julii thanks to easy neighbours to conquer insanely fast as well as the ease of sniping the natural expansions of Brutii and Scipii factions while being very safe, then Brutii for the best troops and the fact that the player isn't likely to struggle against Greeks like the AI and therefore gets a very rich area with great wonders very early.

Good explanation.

I agree on most points. except that you think the scipii is worse then the julii when player controlled. scipii can expand to more wealthy areas quicker then the julii. meaning they can make more money and get going alot faster then the julii. and they can snipe most wealthy areas as well.

[CheeseMerchant]

Originally posted by Rimril:

Initially they are almost the same, but IMO the Julii are at a clear disadvantage since both the Gauls and Germania are so much stronger than all the roman factions. You can investigate this by starting a new game. After a couple of turns, open the faction summary window and select the faction status sheet. Then select the "Top 5 factions" graphs. The overall and military standings of the romans are way below those of the biggest adversaries.

Early in the game the Scipii and Brutii are not at risk of invasion from overseas while the Julii must spend more resources on defence, stifling economic and technological growth. There could be some random factors governing AI behaviour involved, i.e. each time you start a new game it might develop differently.

Spain also has a tendency to declare war on you as the Julii while you are fighting Gaul. very often i found myself in a 2 front war. occasionally even a 3 front war if the Germans wanted to join in as well.

With the scipii this never happens. your only real enemy is Carthage at the start. giving you all the time you need to focus on 1 enemy, instead of fighting a potential 3 front meat grinder with the julii. this makes scipii the easier faction in my opinion. sure their campaign is pretty boring. but thats not the point.

[FireAgain]

Originally posted by CheeseMerchant:

Good explanation.

I agree on most points. except that you think the scipii is worse then the julii when player controlled. scipii can expand to more wealthy areas quicker then the julii. meaning they can make more money and get going alot faster then the julii. and they can snipe most wealthy areas as well.

I would say that thanks to the ease of transporting things quickly across the sea, Scipii doesn't really have that huge of an advantage relative to the Julii. A skilled/motivated Julii player will absolutely speedrun Gaul (when going for the auto-resolve only achievement I got the short campaign victory within 15 IRL minutes) while also sniping Greece away from Brutii hands. They can easily win on every front even if every neighbour declares war thanks to the abysmal warband spam of 99% of their enemies being easily countered by basic Hastati.

While each individual city may not be worth as much as Carthage, the fact is that they will own everything in Europe with an incredibly early huge city along the way (Patavium is almost always the first huge city if captured early. Growth modifiers OP) while an equally skilled player has either: A: Pretended to be Brutii and invaded Greece after taking Sicily or B: Just killed Carthage and is now trying to sneak-attack Egypt/Greece in a single blitz before they get bogged down in a war (because who wants to waste time on crappy Numidian territory?).

20 cities with 1000 income is vastly superior to 10 cities with 2000 income thanks to the nature of army creation in this game. Scipii and Brutii don't get the raw, explosive start that the Julii get to their army sizes after rolling the barbarians at the start. Those rich, economic cities ultimately just don't matter in the early game as the Romans - you can fuel massive armies of Hastati without really needing to build up anything. For poorer factions, yes - Greece, Egypt, middle-east and Italy are win conditions for being able to afford much of anything at all, but Romans are OP enough not to need it. The "stronger" faction is the one that reaches the limit of their army size-economy ratio first, because the whole thing works exponentially.

[2GenL]

Dont get why people say the brutii are stronger than the scipii when the scipii get gold upgrades for their units pretty much straight away and the brutii dont

[Kayeka]

Originally posted by _2GenL_:

Dont get why people say the brutii are stronger than the scipii when the scipii get gold upgrades for their units pretty much straight away and the brutii dont

Because experience is generally better than equipment upgrades.

[Muerte]

Originally posted by Captain Custard:

The Senate

You can discuss all you want but this is correct.

[2GenL]

Originally posted by Kayeka:

Originally posted by _2GenL_:

Dont get why people say the brutii are stronger than the scipii when the scipii get gold upgrades for their units pretty much straight away and the brutii dont

Because experience is generally better than equipment upgrades.

But you can xp your units just the same through battle without a temple