Traits...

[lalelunatic]

again... i guess... so what exactly is their mechanics? the "guide" on those is, beside mentioning a few, relatively useless, as the aquiring mechanics are not defined or completely wrong.

at best it gives "hints" in some random direction. for some traits it seems to be logical how to get them, but still it seems so arbitarely random.

e.g.: i spent the last 2 days trying to get my mage (now archmage fully skilled) to get the "crystal skin" one, jugging down about 20 of those things as i read some quote from the dev that says "eat lots of em"... well... i did... no trait.

i get that some say traits are limited in amount you can get, but on the other hand, there seem to be certain ones triggering from "events", that are overwriting the limit (like die hard for the hero maybe).

so... for "crystal skin" i assumed, that because of the total anoying way to aquire the shards in the first place, it should be surely one of those traits exceeding the limit. sadly it seems that the 5 traits my hero already has, which came from regular gameplay in the days it took me to aquire the said 20 shards at all, where the limit already.

if thats correct, then whats the point of traits that take so long to get, that in the meantime you already reached your "limit" on those and are not able to get them anyway? should i "not" play my hero for 2 whole days just to get certain ones? i just dont get it...

in a nutshell... can someone, probably the dev, clarify the whole mechanic a bit? cause after playing through the game for quite a few "heroes", making a "perfect" setup is whats left. but thats not doable with so little information on a mechanic that can totally screw that idea with "negative traits" you try to avoid on the way.

and no, i dont want to lower the difficulty to achieve that. it should totally be possible with a more intresting, tactical gameplay in place. not just steamrolling the whole AI armies with aoe-multihit slaye... uhm, death seekers =P.

[Les]

Please check this guide:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1772321751

If you open traits tab on a unit, it will show a list of traits. If you also see ‘(empty trait)’, then it means a unit can earn an extra trait.

Five traits is a limit, but some traits don’t count (this is mentioned in description).

In a nutshell, traits weren’t designed as unit upgrades, but more like a way to make units unique. It’s not about making ‘perfect’ units.

[lalelunatic]

uhm... yeah... thats the guide i mentioned that has several explanations wrong =). at least the "kill counter" stuff makes no sense...

if 5 traits is the limit how do you suggest getting "crystal skin" for your hero? as usually if he even participates in combat the least hes bound to get "purple heart" and "battle forged" which already take up 2 spots... while battle forged is kind of okish, purple heart, which really is the most common trait any troops got for my plays is totally useless later on.

i once (and i really mean once in 150 hours playtime) saw a thing called "mutagen" which alteres traits, sadly again on random. other than that, certain ones are kind of impossible to get playing the game the regular way.. i could technically hold back my hero for the first 20 fights to wait for the crystal mines to drop off enough shards....

but then again. once i start participating in combat hes bound to get useless stuff like purple heart right away blocking out others i want to get. e.g. on that mage, focused, fire starter, survivor (most important one for any caster i think), crystal skin and probably battle forged or anything elsse with defense on it. thats 5 already... if one mistake happens, its all for naught.

and doing all that on even just "hard" difficulty is a bit beyond me =). while normal and easy are just a massacre, hard is relatively chilly/tactical later on, but on impossible... well ok its impossible =).

ps: i get it that its designed to give some "flavor stuff" to the game. and thats ok, but then again, i think a endgame mechanic for the min-max nerds to alter that stuff with more than a random potion every 150 hours would be cool. =) all in all the traits are fun. seeing a guy get arachnophobia from the quadrohit-corrupted blood-black widows is actually relatable =) (you overtuned those a bit did ya? same as the paralyze thing for the beholders =P)

[Les]

Purple Heart doesn’t count as earned trait actually. There is Kills counter if you take a look at unit’s stats.

Look, from what I read here, you want to create ‘perfect’ units and traits weren’t designed for it. Just enjoy the game - most of traits aren’t that significant at all.

Think of it as RPG, for example, John the Archer has fear of spiders. It’s a flavour - that’s it.

[lalelunatic]

well ok. its just that i´m always baffled how in games that are of tactical nature, especially with values in place that give +1-2 attack defense on most stuff and alike, stuff like the traits which give exactly the same magnitude in boni arent considered significant then =P.

anyway. i just wanted to try and get some clarification here. at least i know now that 5 is the limit on traits. although purple heart not counting towards that seems strange, as beside "skilled" traits and stuff from items i have 6 traits.

intelligence (natural not from book), purple heart, which are the two that should not count.

then, fire starter, focused, battle forged and survivor... makes the other 4...

so if the first 2 dont count... why dont i get crystal skin after 20+ shards? =) dont tell me skilled and item traits also count for the limit of aquiring them naturally... that would mean to also not gear up in any way to not bork it...

[Les]

Thank you for suggestions. I am less concerned about having ‘tactical’ than having fun game ^^

In case of traits, we aimed at improving the RPG aspect of the series, than tactical options.

There are a few restrictions on Crystal Skin, from top of my head spellcaster needs to be humanoid and non-Elemental, but I don’t remember without checking the code.

The message here is that you should not try to optimise your units. The same thing applies to the Hard Mode - your troops will die and will be replaced. And it’s fine, because new ones will be usually better.

[lalelunatic]

well fun it is. which means you already succeeded in that topic... now make it min-max-able =P. and nerf paralyze and corrupted blood... not even 10 full maxed war ogres are as terrifiying as those spiders or 6+ beholders...

hm, so... the mage is human... check... hes not an elemental... check... i should have one slot free... check... somethings wrong here =).

aaaand... we´re talking hero here... not unit =). i cant just "let him die" and replace him... at least im not aware of a mechanic that lets that happen =).

anyway. i guess i just leave crystal skin be... to much effort for that. thanks for the replies. cheers.

[Les]

Cool, thanks for your suggestions.

Btw, have you checked out other games?

I have just patched all mainstream games and added Open World campaigns there. Also with player bases.

[lalelunatic]

actually... yes... and its a tad bit confusing. so far i assume you can only play as 1-2 factions per game, or with just a preset hero (iron killer).

thats one part offsetting me a bit. usually im not so appealed by dlc´s, but in this case i kind of dont understand why you split it up in several games instead of putting all your content into one game and add the other stories via dlc. as it is, i would have to always restart another game of the series if i feel like playing another faction. its not that i break a leg over that... i just dont understand why =).

furthermore its unclear to me (despite knowing that you back-implement stuff eventually) whats the "content" so to say of the several implementations. is it just a story mode? or a story mode ontop of all that is free-world? can one play "just" a tactical playthrough without the story, but still using the heros of them?

can one aquire each and every unit in all the games in just one of the games? lets say, can i get my hands on undeads in part 3? can i get orcs in part 1? same with items. and most important... whats with the heros? are they just in their respective parts of the series, or are they aquireable, even as secret "quests" or something, in all parts? what heros are there anyway (as you just get standard units copy pasted with hero skills, yes i fumbled around with the zip-data =P)?

that said, i guess i would be much more appealed to get the "whole" thing if it actually was a whole thing in one "package" containing all the games in well... one game =). this way i at least would know that all that was made surely has to be in there... instead of looking up several threads to figure out what content, that i want to play, is in which game...

as your series is a really good tactical combat game, and from what i red also with good stories in the paid series, which would seem to be easily compatible with one another, as you actually can backport it and doing so regularely, that would scream for a "compilation" kind of game... where you can choose your heros on the fly. get all the stuff in one run no matter with what you started, etc.

well... that said, it appears the series is doing well. if you will, take that as a little "feedback" as to why some people might be put off a bit and get stuff like battle brothers instead. it might sound like basic complains that are discardable... but alas, if the confusing split ups offset me a bit, they surely do so for other people too =).

[Les]

Battle Brothers is one per million succes, and we are not even close to their playerbase ^^

I find it better to have a few separate games for cheaper price, and if players like us, then can purchase our other games. Indie developers are throwing towel left and right, but we are still floating. That means the series is good enough to at least pay for graphics and other assets.

I don’t know if there will be a demand for all-in campaigns, because we will need to price it for like $50 or so. Maybe that’s something worth considering, I need to think of it.

[Shimdom]

Hey, I wrote that a LONG time ago, so I'd imagine that some triggers are at least a little off. I remember trying to farm specific traits on the heroes in various types of games and its... very hard to say the least. Especially with traits like die hard. To be honest if you want to make your units optimal and not just varied between them, the best way to farm them is by enslaving or bribing ect the ones you can find in the wild. They get crazy if you have a pricy team.

[lalelunatic]

i figured yes. =) i would erase the thing with the killcounters though, as they´re completely missleading to "new" people and also incorrect for some traits. e.g. the ingame discription says "you cant have more traits than kills", which in itself renders some of the traits in your guide impossible to aquire considering the kill counter added. i dont know if you could alter the guide though, never done one.

on some your description is a bit off.. snake eater for example. you got it written like the character isnt allowed to have poison resist at all in the list, "only with natural poison resist", which i guess new people would consider to be "no added poison resist". while in fact in the summary below (the ranking) you wrote that the character only gets snake eater when he actually HAS a poison resist stat to begin with.

for people playing the game a bit, your description becomes clear, as they get familiarized with the terminology of "natural", "added", etc. but new people, which are those to consider the guide in the first place, could be mislead by that =).

anyway, you´re right that some traits are hard to get, or plain random. but anyway, even if its not "intended" to min-max... i still like to do that in games. at least after i´ve seen anything else anyway.

i never bribed stuff to be honest, as i thought, if its like in other games the results may be completely random, gotta test that out later =).

[lalelunatic]

sorry but i still dont get it =).

now i managed to get a dryad as hero with crystal skin, survivor and poison eater without getting purple heart. so technically 3 traits out of the limit of 5 that was mentioned.

she had 9 kills at the time she aquired that combination and has the charm trait naturally as dryads start out with it.

heres the catch.... the "marker" or better said, the "invisible" trait that lets you know you still can get a new one dissapeared as soon as she got the last one of the 3 i got.

i then proceeded to get more kills as the game states that you cant have more traits than kills. i ramped her up to 17 kills and took a look in between, but still no "invisible you can get more marker" was appearing... then i did the same again getting elite status first.... same outcome.

so, either your 5 trait limit is bonkers and doesnt work at all, the game "reserves" slots for certain skillable traits (which cant be as certain classes could get 5 of those alone), or i´m totally confused and to stupid to get behind that mechanic.

now i got a char that has only 3 traits aquired and stopped beeing able to get new ones... can someone pls elaborate this to me? cause i dont get it... =(

[Les]

One correction, there are maximum 4 traits to be earned by unit (not five as previously stated). The trait limits depends on number of kills and upgrade level:

The math behind is as below:

public int getTraitsCounterLimit() {
final int upgradeLevel = this.getUpgradeLevel();

double multiplier = 1d;
if (hasActiveAttribute(Hero.TYPE)) multiplier = 1.8d;
int traitsCountLimit = 1;

if (getKillsCounter()<=0) {
traitsCountLimit = 1; //0 = 1
} else if (getKillsCounter()<=(int)(3d * multiplier + upgradeLevel)) {
traitsCountLimit = 2; //1...3 = 2
} else if (getKillsCounter()<=(int)(10d * multiplier + upgradeLevel)) {
traitsCountLimit = 3; //4...10 = 3
} else if (getKillsCounter()<=(int)(18d * multiplier + upgradeLevel)) {
traitsCountLimit = 4; //11...18 = 4
} else {
traitsCountLimit = 4;
}

//no traits for Constructs and Elementals
if (hasActiveAttribute(Construct.TYPE, true)) traitsCountLimit = 0;
if (hasActiveAttribute(Elemental.TYPE, true)) traitsCountLimit = 0;

return traitsCountLimit;
}

Different traits have different mechanics to earn them, for example: Strong can be earned by attacking units, Focused by hitting units with Magic Missle, Fatso is learned when unit spends a few battles in your team (but it can be also removed if you start using that unit in battles). There are various limits on which traits can be earned by which race, for example Maddress can be earned only by an unit with Berserker attribute.

There are special traits which don't add to the count, namely: Intelligence, Maimed, Purple Heart, Memories, Fatso and Slayer. I have added the desciption to those traits to make it clear. Also, any native trait (e.g. Cold Blooded on Sea Diver, Intelligence on Octopods, etc.) is excluded from this mechanics.

There is also a mechanics with Mutagen Potion (v-rare item) which will randomly modify existing traits, i.e. allow to un-learn them by doing the same actions that earned trait.

I hope it clarifies the traits mechanics.

[lalelunatic]

well that explains a lot of my problems as the ingame description reads like 5 kills = 5 traits. although i assumed its not an even multiplier, as i had 2 traits with 9 kills, which was 4x the amount and seemed to much for me.

but what i read of the code its not static but a random ranged threshold for trait unlocks. only 4 traits is a bummer though =P, screws up my plan for that char a bit. but alas, huge thanks for making it 100% clear this time. spending hours trying to get those unlocked wasnt always pleasant =P.

i figured out some traits and their unlocks so far, although i´m still not sure about survivor... even with a free slot and 10+ tries in different saves and states and just 1 hp left at the end of the battle it didnt trigger. got it now, but i guess its just super random...

so, thanks again for explaining =)

[Les]

Survivor is earned by surviving battle with 1HP, but also after Resurrection spell. You also need to have at least 10 kills on that unit.

All traits are random. Please keep in mind that this mechanics was added to make units unique, i.e. distinct one Blademaster from the other. Some of the traits are really powerful, but not so that they will break the game.

Nevertheless, some of them CAN exploit the game when used en mass. Think of all your units having Snake Eater (+1 HP when poisoned) - in such case you will be able to cast Poison Cloud on them all the time. Now, one unit like this is just adding spice, but the whole army?

The above is the reason why we are not eager to make this mechanics to be easily tampered with. It's fun in small doses, but not on larger scale.