Eye Messages discovery(?)

[Perseus]

(This might look somewhat complex to understand if you're not familiar with the current knowledge of Eye Messages, sorry.)

I noticed something about the eye messages, something i haven't found written about anywhere in the online community documents about them.

None of the characters present in non-shared sections ever appear in [later shared sections of size 2+] in the same messages,
which is very unlikely to happen by accident.
The approximate chance is 0,192378604% (0,227159945% when accounting for the lack of double characters).
I think this means that, every time a ciphertext character is used, its position in the "key" changes, probably swapping it with some other character.¹


However, i don't use Discord, so maybe this is already known about, and there's just nothing written about it outside of Discord?
Does anyone who does use Discord know whether this is already known?


¹So far, all my attempts at figuring out how the key is modified in such a way have been unsuccessful.

[Gymnos]

This looks like it's already known. Definitely recommend joining the Discord so you have full access to the information though. I'd be ecstatic if the community solves it. I've been doing my own part trying to follow Patrick's Noita Eye and Disc cypher and map to get recorded proof if it leads to anything. Got half way up the tower last night and had a few other good runs but otherwise its a very difficult challenge. Maybe give this a read and maybe will convince you to join the Discord. This is one of many people's contributions.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EwnCgP4eq1g_M2iZObSDZdhV3fFoZ0RXRBXWrUm-hw0/edit?tab=t.0

[Perseus]

Originally posted by Gymnos:

This looks like it's already known.

Are you saying that because you asked and got an answer, or because of some other reason, such as a document you've read? (If it's from a document, do you have a link?)

Originally posted by Gymnos:

This looks like it's already known. Definitely recommend joining the Discord so you have full access to the information though. [...] Maybe give this a read and maybe will convince you to join the Discord.

I haven't joined the Noita Discord because i don't use Discord at all.

Originally posted by Gymnos:

Maybe give this a read and maybe will convince you to join the Discord. This is one of many people's contributions.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EwnCgP4eq1g_M2iZObSDZdhV3fFoZ0RXRBXWrUm-hw0/edit?tab=t.0

I've read a large part of it, but i didn't see any proof anywhere, it just seemed like speculation based on what is likely a bunch of coincidences.
Did i miss a proof somewhere?
(It also seems completely unrelated to current knowledge of the eye messages. There's no mention of triagrams, reading order, shared sections, or isomorphs.)

[Charadin42]

Also tried to omit repeated parts but got nowhere so far. I think it is bit like 8 dirrection crossword puzzle. Only a small bit is the actual message and it is hidden in lot of random fluff.

I think we are still missing a clue. There are just way too many permutations, cypher types and ways to try to read it for there to be a reasonable chance to crack it. For complex cypher without any key hint you need much more massages to find paterns. Also I doubt they invented some brand new one...

However it was build to be solved. As with everything else in game there has to be some kind of way to get an ingame hint how to read it.

[Perseus]

Originally posted by Charadin42:

Also tried to omit repeated parts but got nowhere so far. I think it is bit like 8 dirrection crossword puzzle. Only a small bit is the actual message and it is hidden in lot of random fluff.

Omitting shared sections breaks a bunch of the isomoprhs. In addition, a large part of one shared section is isomorphic with four other non-shared sections, making that method unlikely to be useful.

Originally posted by Charadin42:

I think we are still missing a clue. There are just way too many permutations, cypher types and ways to try to read it for there to be a reasonable chance to crack it. For complex cypher without any key hint you need much more massages to find paterns. Also I doubt they invented some brand new one...

There might be clues or patterns within the messages themselves that reveal how to decode them, as has been the case with triagrams, the 83 character set that produces isomorphs and maybe also the thing i'm talking about.

I'm also not so sure about the dev who made this having not invented a new cipher (or at least, used one that's either so simple it has no name or is largely undocumented), since i haven't been able to find any cipher that matches the description of "whenever a character in a key is used, move/swap that character within the key".

[Charadin42]

First I started with idea that you need to draw lines between eyes and that it will create some letters, runes etc. Also I thought three eyes on starting pillar connect to it in some way.

I also had some fun having chat gpt pitching me cipher types regarding cyphers coded using 5 distinct characters (symbols). Tried a long to solve it like Polybius Square Cipher but havent found any good permutation.

Also I tried to find something unique for Finland... for example some cipher used in military, ww2 and so on, that you can come across in some local version of scout while growing up. Came up empthy but Hagelin B-211 was interesting read :D Bit like enigma and also worked on 5*5 grid.

[Gymnos]

Originally posted by Perseus:

Are you saying that because you asked and got an answer, or because of some other reason, such as a document you've read? (If it's from a document, do you have a link?)

I am relaying information I found when searching your idea on the cryptography sections of the discord. I've been following along as well but a lot of the cryptography just goes over my head.

Originally posted by Perseus:

I haven't joined the Noita Discord because i don't use Discord at all.

That's fine. I am just telling you where you will find like minded people.

Originally posted by Perseus:

I've read a large part of it, but i didn't see any proof anywhere, it just seemed like speculation based on what is likely a bunch of coincidences.
Did i miss a proof somewhere?

Unlikely, but I am surprised you saw this since its so new and I have only seen it on the discord. Its not explicitly related to what you mentioned but interesting all the same. There is a lot on Discord about that and I don't intend on relaying every secret from Discord to this steam thread. Hope you understand.

[Perseus]

Originally posted by Gymnos:

I am relaying information I found when searching your idea on the cryptography sections of the discord. I've been following along as well but a lot of the cryptography just goes over my head.

Originally posted by Gymnos:

There is a lot on Discord about that and I don't intend on relaying every secret from Discord to this steam thread. Hope you understand.

I understand completely, and i'm not really interested in knowing everything that was mentioned there either way.
However, could i trouble you to relay specifically the information you found when searching my idea?

Originally posted by Gymnos:

Unlikely, but I am surprised you saw this since its so new and I have only seen it on the discord. Its not explicitly related to what you mentioned but interesting all the same.

I only read it after you shared the link. It does feel familiar, as if i'd read it a few years ago, but i'm probably misremembering some other document.

[genechtagazoink]

Originally posted by Perseus:

None of the characters present in non-shared sections ever appear in [later shared sections of size 2+] in the same messages, which is very unlikely to happen by accident.

i've noticed that a while ago, and it made me believe the code is a kind of one time pad where trigrams are words taken from a dictionary text, not letters.

[Perseus]

Originally posted by genechtagazoink:

i've noticed that a while ago, and it made me believe the code is a kind of one time pad where trigrams are words taken from a dictionary text, not letters.

Sorry, i'm not sure i understand. What are you suggesting?

[genechtagazoink]

i mean, each trigram in a number indicating a word in a "key text". it's a popular way of coding, spies often used it - they took the words from a book everyone had, a bible for instance. if the eye code is meant to be decoded, the key text should be known to us and must be rather large - at least 83 words. can it be the runic text from the orb temples?

[Perseus]

Originally posted by genechtagazoink:

i mean, each trigram in a number indicating a word in a "key text". it's a popular way of coding, spies often used it - they took the words from a book everyone had, a bible for instance. if the eye code is meant to be decoded, the key text should be known to us and must be rather large - at least 83 words. can it be the runic text from the orb temples?

But in what way is that related to my "discovery"?
I don't see what part could inspire your dictionary idea.

[Perseus]

Originally posted by Gymnos:

Maybe give this a read and maybe will convince you to join the Discord. This is one of many people's contributions.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EwnCgP4eq1g_M2iZObSDZdhV3fFoZ0RXRBXWrUm-hw0/edit?tab=t.0

This document was recently updated with the author's thoughts on the commonly accepted reading order, and they don't seem to really understand it at all, or any of the proofs related to it.


Given how difficult to understand the public documents about "current Eye knowledge" are, i find this extremely unsurprising. It took me a long time to understand them myself, and i had to put a lot of effort into understanding into it to actually succeed.
I made my "discovery" soon after finally understanding them.


I think one of the reasons why the Eyes are still unsolved is probably related to how unclear and tough to understand those documents are (which means few people actually understand current knowledge) :

-They mention proofs like the existence of the isomorphs without actually explaining that they are proofs that the things leading to their discovery is correct;

-They mention the 0-82 order as if it was proven to be relevant, but as far as i know, that specific reading order hasn't been proven to be "right". The patterns that emerge from that reading order do actually prove that something is correct, but the thing that's proven is that at least one of the six symmetrical reading orders is correct (the 0-82 order is one of them).
This is because all six symmetrical reading orders result in a set of 83 different triagrams, with the only difference between the reading orders being the "value" of those triagrams, and as far as i know, no pattern was proven to exist only within the 0-82 order.

-There's almost nothing pointing to the most relevant and informative documents that also mentions them to being exactly that (at least, outside Discord).

-Some of the documents, especially the most relevant and informative ones, tend to both look and be very difficult to understand;

-And a bunch of other reasons as well.