Noita's potential is limited by its identity crisis. Roguelike + Soulslike = Dislike

[SitcomReality]

The heart of the issue lies within Noita's identity. It seems caught between two genres — a magical power fantasy roguelike focused on murdering everything to upgrade your weapons so you can murder everything better before inevitable permadeath, and a huge and expansive indulgent open-world exploration game. These two genres tend to pull in opposite directions; the thrill of fast-paced, risk-laden progression conflicts with the detailed, patient exploration of a sprawling landscape.

Noita cultivates a harsh environment that demands rigorous dedication. Its permadeath ethos coupled with a colossal labyrinth of randomized levels turns its promise of epic adventure into hours of grueling repetition for budding players just seeking to grasp the elements and experience any of what makes the game fun. This curious choice results in repeating the limited early-stage gameplay with barely any engagement with the game's underlying mechanics and systems.

While it offers the thrill of uncharted conquests in a vast procedurally generated open world, Noita's environment does not facilitate exploration. The game mandates adventurous curiosity if you want to engage with its most interesting mechanics (eg. unlocking the Greek letter spells), but also imposes severe punishment through permadeath and scarce health restoration.

Noita's whole identity is based on its intricate wand/spell system, but these marvels can only be unchained after a seemingly epic duration of gameplay combined with a massive amount of scouring forums and wikis. The average run ends before the bulk of the wand/spell system is fully unfurled and experienced in its glory and breadth, and for new players trying to learn its systems, vast amounts of "playing Noita" time are dedicated to reading about it in a web browser. Uncovering the layered intricacies comes with the sour revelation that it simply takes a massive investment of time to get to play with the features that make Noita compelling.

I've been tempted to learn how to make the mod that converts Noita into the roguelite game I'd really love to play, but that probably won't happen, so I hope Nolla will eventually choose what game they want to make and stick to it. While attempting to marry the frantic pace of a roguelike with the in-depth discovery inherent to an open-world survival game, the hybrid system ultimately dilutes the value of both.

If the goal is to establish an open-world exploration game, the mechanics should support this by integrating elements such as regenerating health, a map or guide of some kind, and fast-travel.

If Noita is meant to be a roguelike, scale the maps accordingly, include frequent safe zones and upgrades so that we get to see more of the game. The game mechanics should expedite the process of getting us to new upgrades and novel mechanics. Even if players still die after the same average playtime, more frequent Holy Mountains and much smaller maps between them would at least allow us to experience more different combinations of perks and spells within each run.

And finally, if Noita is meant to be a Soulslike game, then surely the consequences of death shouldn't include erasing the player's character and all of its progress.

Also, kind of separately: the potentials of the alchemy system and substance interactions is so insanely under utilized. The opportunities for creating chain reactions and ongoing reactions, to tying in more with the wand/spell curation system, are colossal. It is truly a missed opportunity to not have a wider range of substances that interact with each other in interesting ways, inviting players to experiment, strategize, and Noita themselves.

TLDR: Wand building is the bedrock of Noita. As such, this system should be optimized to draw players into the core of the game, not push them away. The expansive world design and the game's arduous path to intriguing spells in hard-to-reach places create a barrier that only seasoned players or those with relentless patience will overcome.

[Weyrling]

引用自 Chris：

then you have the heart wizards. they have a glitch where when they shoot you it halves your health and if you pick up a heart crystal when the debuff wears off you regain the hp but by an increased amount due to percentage increase shenanigans.

Of note: This still exists, the debuffs just no longer stack infinitely. It isn't a glitch.

Chainsaw for example seems like the most useless spell to a new player. only for certain players to use it to kill every enemy in the game. without research you have to stumble on the proper spell placement so the double cast wraps around the wand rapid firing.

Or you could actually experiment?
I concluded that chainsaw was a great spell even before I figured out all of what it does once I used it for a bit and realized it could dig into softer materials very easily on top of speeding up the wand.
I also figured out wand wrapping on my own, as did many other people.
You say "without research", but the wiki didn't always exist.
Exploration and discovery in games is very fun for some people.

Could it be a lot better? Yeah, I feel like the game is too slow at the beginning and the hurdle for new players is bad, and there are several mechanics that are needlessly dangerous.

It just isn't intended to be a casual game. If you lack knowledge, let your attention lapse, or mess around it will punish you (probably with a game over), and that's by design.

If you're looking for a casual experience then mod it up, you can do that and nobody will come after you.

[Chris]

引用自 Weyrling：

引用自 Chris：

then you have the heart wizards. they have a glitch where when they shoot you it halves your health and if you pick up a heart crystal when the debuff wears off you regain the hp but by an increased amount due to percentage increase shenanigans.

Of note: This still exists, the debuffs just no longer stack infinitely. It isn't a glitch.

Chainsaw for example seems like the most useless spell to a new player. only for certain players to use it to kill every enemy in the game. without research you have to stumble on the proper spell placement so the double cast wraps around the wand rapid firing.

Or you could actually experiment?
I concluded that chainsaw was a great spell even before I figured out all of what it does once I used it for a bit and realized it could dig into softer materials very easily on top of speeding up the wand.
I also figured out wand wrapping on my own, as did many other people.
You say "without research", but the wiki didn't always exist.
Exploration and discovery in games is very fun for some people.

Could it be a lot better? Yeah, I feel like the game is too slow at the beginning and the hurdle for new players is bad, and there are several mechanics that are needlessly dangerous.

It just isn't intended to be a casual game. If you lack knowledge, let your attention lapse, or mess around it will punish you (probably with a game over), and that's by design.

If you're looking for a casual experience then mod it up, you can do that and nobody will come after you.

you just ignored my entire point. keep crying.

"Could it be a lot better? Yeah,"

this was literally my point. having to mod the game is just not something i want to do. im allowed to speak out harmful mechanics for beginners. you saying just mod it is part of the problem. you just want people to stop speaking negatively about the game. you can mod ANY GAME, does this make every game amazing? imagine buying fallout but saving crashes the game. theres a mod that fixes that. the game still hass an issue.

noita has multiple glitches that the devs just allow to exist because they think some are cool and some arent. like being able to pour liquids through floors the devs know and dont care.
but they see a bug they DONT like and they remove it at their disclosure. like the heart mage or unlimited drinking capacity.

how about alternative worlds broken teleporters? the devs straight up admitted that they were an accident and the portals were supposed to work but they just like the way it is. WHY? because they say so.

im not a fan of game balance and certain game changing mechanics changing because the dev thought about it over the weekend.

I even acknowledged i have no issue to dying repeatedly its when the situation is genuinely out of your control. Like the ghosts that spawn with prior run wands. they can have a homing pollen trigger with a drill. ♥♥♥♥ will seek and instant kill you through walls.

thats not a skill issue. its an overlooked design by the devs.

[joey12313]

引用自 dachte：

引用自 Droolguy：

@Drool:
You could remove over half the content in this game and most people wouldn't even notice it was gone.

The genre of "very-deep very-hard games where you die a lot and need to be cool with that or be very, very careful and then will still probably die but much later" has a far bigger divide between casuals and the people who really geek out over them.

When I started playing Noita, I was a casual. I'd play a little bit, see how far I could get (and rarely would I get that far), and then die YASD. Occasionally I'd get lucky, get a good set of wands, and go enough further to get a taste of what "more" would look like. And then die YASD but later.

More recently I've been giving it more attention (not really many more hours) and learning how important bottles are at preventing some of my deaths; just simple application of water to convert acid pools or a few other things is giving me more leverage, and I'm getting smarter in how I play. It's good; I'm on average getting moderately further. I doubt I'll ever beat the game, but it's still fun to play with as I pick up some new tricks.

If I ever start reliably being able to heal, that'll be a game changer.

Games like this should exist. Even if some people keep wringing their hands at being unable to beat the game, the game should politely but firmly refuse to bend to their desires. This isn't a game casuals can beat. It's not even a game people in the middle (like me) can beat. That's fine.

The Angband variants I was a developer on ages ago were like that too. For the better.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2442641701&searchtext=save




htt/modworkshop.net/mod/38530 heres disable mod restrictions i took out the ps and : just readd ps: after htt
also i htt/cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1020458521927630879/1156185692855083008/disable-mod-restrictions.zip?ex=654a1ad6&is=6537a5d6&hm=db720d8314bbeb73e147febbfff3d1620511feb42cabec8d1f9095e0aae862f8&

and this second thing is the beta version for beta branch
its from the noita discord

also https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2894298700&searchtext=mod+manage

after this you can get whatever else you want just certain mods are old so check the dates on mods or last update and some mods are incompat with others

also look in the first page of this discussion to see some other mods i reconmended

[Weyrling]

引用自 Chris：

you just ignored my entire point. keep crying.

You're the one that's complaining about things the devs apparently don't intend to change.
If you don't like the devs' vision, you mod the game.

You can want them to change the game to fit your vision, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Chris]

引用自 Weyrling：

引用自 Chris：

you just ignored my entire point. keep crying.

You're the one that's complaining about things the devs apparently don't intend to change.
If you don't like the devs' vision, you mod the game.

You can want them to change the game to fit your vision, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

thanks for an insightful comment. what argument are you making? that i said my opinion? there are literal thousands of games with issues that wont get patched. you speak about nothing but the complete obvious.

Im here saying that we should be allowed to speak. but when the response is literally just "shut up and mod" the community is not in a great spot for actual feedback for the devs.

i could make one serous argument and you just brush it off with "just mod" this is steam discussions not steam echo chambers.

[dachte]

引用自 Chris：

heres where it gets weird. if this was the case what is the purpose of constant patches that limit your ability? you used to be able to consume an infinite amount of substances.
The devs thought this was broken and nerfed the hell out of it.

...

see for devs to take a stance on certain issues but ignore valid complaints doesn't help the game. in my eyes the dev just cheated because there were paths that made the game significantly easier. and the dev just has a hard on for hard play.

The idea between hard, long-haul games where most people will lose doesn't mean they don't fix bugs or change things like any other game. They still get to have ideas how things should work, and to fix stuff.

There is room for games where very, very few people will ever win. Those games can still have support rather than being tossed over some wall and then ignored.

[Chris]

引用自 dachte：

引用自 Chris：

heres where it gets weird. if this was the case what is the purpose of constant patches that limit your ability? you used to be able to consume an infinite amount of substances.
The devs thought this was broken and nerfed the hell out of it.

...

see for devs to take a stance on certain issues but ignore valid complaints doesn't help the game. in my eyes the dev just cheated because there were paths that made the game significantly easier. and the dev just has a hard on for hard play.

The idea between hard, long-haul games where most people will lose doesn't mean they don't fix bugs or change things like any other game. They still get to have ideas how things should work, and to fix stuff.

There is room for games where very, very few people will ever win. Those games can still have support rather than being tossed over some wall and then ignored.

i guess ultimately i just want the game to become more popular. its so close to being another huge classic. And its frustrating knowing small QOL things could make beginner experience infinitely better without impacting the game in any way.

This is the discussions page and its the only real place to even talk about changes unless you are an influencer and even then fat chance. The game is still very good, but there is certainly room for at the least discussion about fixes we think would help,

side note because people say to just mod it this is what i did starting out but then i found out that due to achievements being disabled the game doesnt spawn the ghost wizard with one of your prior runs wands.

ill ask you, is there anything you think could be looked into by the devs? no game is perfect is there any mechanics you would like to see modified?

[joey12313]

引用自 Chris：

引用自 dachte：

The idea between hard, long-haul games where most people will lose doesn't mean they don't fix bugs or change things like any other game. They still get to have ideas how things should work, and to fix stuff.

There is room for games where very, very few people will ever win. Those games can still have support rather than being tossed over some wall and then ignored.

i guess ultimately i just want the game to become more popular. its so close to being another huge classic. And its frustrating knowing small QOL things could make beginner experience infinitely better without impacting the game in any way.

This is the discussions page and its the only real place to even talk about changes unless you are an influencer and even then fat chance. The game is still very good, but there is certainly room for at the least discussion about fixes we think would help,

side note because people say to just mod it this is what i did starting out but then i found out that due to achievements being disabled the game doesnt spawn the ghost wizard with one of your prior runs wands.

ill ask you, is there anything you think could be looked into by the devs? no game is perfect is there any mechanics you would like to see modified?

"side note because people say to just mod it this is what i did starting out but then i found out that due to achievements being disabled"

seriously i literally just posted this again above like how do you go to steam discussions and dont even look at the posts in it like you even replied to people a couple of times so you had to be looking in the discussion wtf

and people like you always talk about how the game has problems vanilla (whether true or not up for debate im just here to shut you up on mods taking out achievements) like people telling you to get mods are literally right because mods do disable achievements but theres a mod that disables mod restrictions literally

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2442641701&searchtext=save




htt/modworkshop.net/mod/38530 heres disable mod restrictions i took out the ps and : just readd ps: after htt so link doesnt get removed also this mod is approved by the official noita discord which has the devs in it i think and they havent done anything about disable mod restrictions so you wont get banned or anything
also i htt/cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1020458521927630879/1156185692855083008/disable-mod-restrictions.zip?ex=654a1ad6&is=6537a5d6&hm=db720d8314bbeb73e147febbfff3d1620511feb42cabec8d1f9095e0aae862f8&

and this second thing is the beta version for beta branch
its from the noita discord

also https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2894298700&searchtext=mod+manage

after this you can get whatever else you want just certain mods are old so check the dates on mods or last update and some mods are incompat with others

also look in the first page of this discussion to see some other mods i reconmended

[Chris]

引用自 joey12313：

引用自 Chris：

i guess ultimately i just want the game to become more popular. its so close to being another huge classic. And its frustrating knowing small QOL things could make beginner experience infinitely better without impacting the game in any way.

This is the discussions page and its the only real place to even talk about changes unless you are an influencer and even then fat chance. The game is still very good, but there is certainly room for at the least discussion about fixes we think would help,

side note because people say to just mod it this is what i did starting out but then i found out that due to achievements being disabled the game doesnt spawn the ghost wizard with one of your prior runs wands.

ill ask you, is there anything you think could be looked into by the devs? no game is perfect is there any mechanics you would like to see modified?

"side note because people say to just mod it this is what i did starting out but then i found out that due to achievements being disabled"

seriously i literally just posted this again above like how do you go to steam discussions and dont even look at the posts in it like you even replied to people a couple of times so you had to be looking in the discussion wtf

and people like you always talk about how the game has problems vanilla (whether true or not up for debate im just here to shut you up on mods taking out achievements) like people telling you to get mods are literally right because mods do disable achievements but theres a mod that disables mod restrictions literally

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2442641701&searchtext=save




htt/modworkshop.net/mod/38530 heres disable mod restrictions i took out the ps and : just readd ps: after htt so link doesnt get removed also this mod is approved by the official noita discord which has the devs in it i think and they havent done anything about disable mod restrictions so you wont get banned or anything
also i htt/cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1020458521927630879/1156185692855083008/disable-mod-restrictions.zip?ex=654a1ad6&is=6537a5d6&hm=db720d8314bbeb73e147febbfff3d1620511feb42cabec8d1f9095e0aae862f8&

and this second thing is the beta version for beta branch
its from the noita discord

also https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2894298700&searchtext=mod+manage

after this you can get whatever else you want just certain mods are old so check the dates on mods or last update and some mods are incompat with others

also look in the first page of this discussion to see some other mods i reconmended

I try to explain i want no part in modification of this game and you still try to tell me to mod it. ironic you wanna say all this ♥♥♥♥ about not reading prior comments. almost word for word my issue was that players ignore real issues and just trying to end discussions by saying mod the game.

its another way to try and stop people from actually discussing issues with the game design. Its insane you did not even comprehend the fact it was me trying to have a discussion with you.

ill ask you AGAIN, is there anything you think could be looked into by the devs? no game is perfect is there any mechanics you would like to see modified? im not talking about modding the game. im talking about things you think the developer should genuinely think about. instead of showing you are objective in your reasoning you ignore my question and just want to say the same thing i just told you was a problem with the community. So guess what? YOU are literally part of the problem

[Weyrling]

引用自 Chris：

I try to explain i want no part in modification of this game and you still try to tell me to mod it. ironic you wanna say all this ♥♥♥♥ about not reading prior comments. almost word for word my issue was that players ignore real issues and just trying to end discussions by saying mod the game.

There are some real issues, but a lot of the stuff you bring up is subjective at best.

ill ask you AGAIN, is there anything you think could be looked into by the devs? no game is perfect is there any mechanics you would like to see modified? im not talking about modding the game. im talking about things you think the developer should genuinely think about. instead of showing you are objective in your reasoning you ignore my question and just want to say the same thing i just told you was a problem with the community. So guess what? YOU are literally part of the problem

Personally, I think that the system that converts between "liquid projectiles" and "liquids" could be improved substantially, the physics object system could be improved a lot. If they removed the ability for things to "upwarp" it would really improve how intuitive the games' systems are, to say the least.
There should also probably be more ways to edit wands and test what they do, despite it being practically THE key mechanic of the entire game it is significantly limited right up until it becomes infinite.

When it comes to things like "firing a random wand I picked up killed me", I don't have an issue with that.
Random electrical discharges killing you because you happened to be standing on a big metal platform, or you opened a chest underwater, sure why not.
Enemies picking up wands with homing projectiles or whatever? Doesn't sound too unreasonable to me.

[joey12313]

引用自 Chris：

引用自 joey12313：

"side note because people say to just mod it this is what i did starting out but then i found out that due to achievements being disabled"

seriously i literally just posted this again above like how do you go to steam discussions and dont even look at the posts in it like you even replied to people a couple of times so you had to be looking in the discussion wtf

and people like you always talk about how the game has problems vanilla (whether true or not up for debate im just here to shut you up on mods taking out achievements) like people telling you to get mods are literally right because mods do disable achievements but theres a mod that disables mod restrictions literally

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2442641701&searchtext=save




htt/modworkshop.net/mod/38530 heres disable mod restrictions i took out the ps and : just readd ps: after htt so link doesnt get removed also this mod is approved by the official noita discord which has the devs in it i think and they havent done anything about disable mod restrictions so you wont get banned or anything
also i htt/cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1020458521927630879/1156185692855083008/disable-mod-restrictions.zip?ex=654a1ad6&is=6537a5d6&hm=db720d8314bbeb73e147febbfff3d1620511feb42cabec8d1f9095e0aae862f8&

and this second thing is the beta version for beta branch
its from the noita discord

also https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2894298700&searchtext=mod+manage

after this you can get whatever else you want just certain mods are old so check the dates on mods or last update and some mods are incompat with others

also look in the first page of this discussion to see some other mods i reconmended

I try to explain i want no part in modification of this game and you still try to tell me to mod it. ironic you wanna say all this ♥♥♥♥ about not reading prior comments. almost word for word my issue was that players ignore real issues and just trying to end discussions by saying mod the game.

its another way to try and stop people from actually discussing issues with the game design. Its insane you did not even comprehend the fact it was me trying to have a discussion with you.

ill ask you AGAIN, is there anything you think could be looked into by the devs? no game is perfect is there any mechanics you would like to see modified? im not talking about modding the game. im talking about things you think the developer should genuinely think about. instead of showing you are objective in your reasoning you ignore my question and just want to say the same thing i just told you was a problem with the community. So guess what? YOU are literally part of the problem

"" almost word for word my issue was that players ignore real issues and just trying to end discussions by saying mod the game.

its another way to try and stop people from actually discussing issues with the game design. Its insane you did not even comprehend the fact it was me trying to have a discussion with you."

forgot to say it in ze post but as you can see in the games news section the 1.0 epilogue update happened probably over a year ago the game is finished getting major updates

like mostly only thing they do now is this https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/881100/view/3655287845314765645?l=english and mod showcases
i was there when the game was in early access and for 1.0 release
reason why i say the above "game already went through 1.0 its finished" is because the game likely wont take much more suggestions or new ideas officially that is in updates but you can do it yourself and the devs/official noita discord wont stop you make whatever you want you can fix those imaginary issues you spout of if disable mod restrictions a mod that reenables things turned off from mods can do it and the discord approves it theres nothing stopping you making the game "better" yourself (better since i dont really care much for whatever you're having a issue about on the game im just posting mods vbasically)

[Meteorific]

Personally I think the game is perfect right where it is, well written thinkpiece though.

[dachte]

I am open to Noita changing, provided it keeps its identity. It should have intricate systems, it should be hard, over 99% of runs should be failures. Death should be final, there should be no save slots. Keep all that and just add new systems? I'm open to it.

Slow-walk the game towards being an Ubisoft game maybe even with a story mode where people can savescum their way through? Nope.

[CAT PRIME]

Frankly the game is fine, if anything I would suggest introducing a lives system.
Could just make it where the extra life perk is always found in some holy mountains and rarely in other hidden places. The player automatically starts off with one.
Add an iron man mode that functions as the game does now.

[PixelPusher]

After 300+ hours, full vanilla progress and playing several popular mods I am willing to agree with that observation. A very good game with a lot to discover if you don't value your time. Surely the overall game loop could be streamlined and tightened down a bit without losing its appeal to more dedicated players.

(machine translated text)