Too much of this game feels left up to chance.

[AlluMan96]

Does anyone else feel this way about the game? It's a fun game to mess around in from time to time, but the process of actually trying to beat the game is much too demoralizing and sluggish.


With how rampantly the game's challenge escalates, you need "stars-align" tier circumstances to reasonably keep up. Wands, spells and duplicates of them, a combination of wands and sets of spells, extensions to health, some decent perks that synergize with all of the former, it's a nightmare to try actually become strong without just lucking out with some overpowered wand. Even then, by the time you make it to the jungle, the game will just kill you with insta-death scenarios and stun-locking anyway. I can't even imagine what a no-upgrades run of this game feels like to play.


Even the perks, shop items and health ups you get at the Holy Mountain are either not good enough equalizers or, like the rest of the game, entirely based on luck. Getting 10 hp at every mountain feels like such a pitiful amount, you might as well not even bother giving the extension. Due to how flexible and inconsistent prices at the shop are, you either have to actively grind money to ensure you can buy something or just hope for the best and how useful a perk is ranges anywhere from run-saving to an active liability.


The only guaranteed upgrade you have is getting the health extensions you get from the orb-location, but really now? Do you expect players to spend 10 minutes at the beginning of every run just walking up and down the map to grab those things? Not to mention, to even get a chance to grab more than one of them per run requires specific terrain or spells, boiling it down to, you guessed it, getting lucky.


With how the game is, I just find the game thoroughly unrewarding to play. I actually have no idea how good or bad I am at the game, because the challenge of the game feels like it swings a full 180 on a dime. The game needs some kind of standard baseline from which a player can reasonably strategize. Starting upgrades, standardized shop-prices, maybe a slightly smaller overhang in difficulty during later levels, if just any one of these elements was addressed, I guarantee you the game could start feeling alot more encouraging to play.

[Jayne_Cobb]

For me, Noita is a game that is just fun playing and fooling around in.
Reaching the end is more of an optional goal. I have so much fun, after
about 110 hours in, 140 deaths and one win. Experiencing the mayhem,
the Falling Everything Engine, all the possibilities, combinations and even
the sudden unexpected deaths are all part of the charm for me.

Recently I had a wonderful run, fire resistence, explosion resistence, 700
hit points by just fooling around not actively going for locations, a wand that
cast 15 spells at once, loaded with shotgun spells, fire, acid and explosion on
impact. It was some beautiful madness. Then I dropped on a pixel of that stuff
that mutates you, got transformed into a sheep, caught fire, died. :'D
But that's fine. I'm already curious what the next run throws at me.

I actually enjoy not optimizing to reach the end. For me, there are
enough games that focus on it, or min-maxing your skills/attributes,
to reach the end, the goal. Noita reminds me of the time, playing
games as a kid on the C-64, Atari 2600 or later the SNES.

So many games, that you played so many times, with friends,
that you never saw the end, but just had a blast playing it. =)

[Jimmerzz]

The game is a roguelike. Not every round you are going to be able to beat the game. The random element leads a lot to each round feeling different. I can understand where you are coming from in your statements.

There are mods that can make the game more forgiving.

This one you might like. Everytime you get to the heart between levels you have a respawn back there if you die once. https://modworkshop.net/mod/25975

[clarkeveritas]

There is a cool mod that gives you randomized loadouts. I've been using the Thunder Mage and Fire Mage ones.... it makes it easier to make it further into the game where you can start playing around with neat stuff. I just realized that it wasn't keeping track of my records/stats due to the mod so I went back into playing normal and I find that I'm MUCH better from having the experience of getting to lower levels and fighting ridiculous enemies. It still sucks to not start out with Thunder or the little Fireball spell (the infinite one).... but it's still much easier now than before I screwed around with the mod. With the mod it said I had explored 14 or so locations.... which brings me to this: how many freaking levels are there in this game?

[Tornek125]

Originally posted by clarkeveritas:

With the mod it said I had explored 14 or so locations.... which brings me to this: how many freaking levels are there in this game?

Technically.... infinite. Sort of.

[Achi88]

Yeah, I agree. It's still fun, but you can die very quickly in many ways that are to a large extent out of your control. Stunlocked because of how the hit-effects are set up, enemies angering the gods, etc

[Meat Man (Alfons)]

I hope some things get fine tuned as the game goes on, like some ways to even the odds of getting roughly what you want.. perhaps some kind of Spell transmution system where you can combine spells to get other spells, like a water based spell as a primary material, plus the modifier as a secondary resource, like any trail modifier will result in a water trail.

Perhaps you drop these spells in Alchemic Precursor to transmute them, giving it a secondary use

I expect more spells to be added which will dilute the lootpool even further, so having means to get roughly what you want will be a blessing.

For the most part, I think the early game is the biggest slog, since a lot of the early game can dictate how you do later on, such as health pickups you find which get even more extreme with the Health Upgrade. But beyond that you will have access to more spells. I wish that health pickups had more rhyme and reason to where you find them, so you won't get super unlucky and not get a single one until Snowy Caverns or something

[clarkeveritas]

I would LOVE a system where you can pick starting equipment and have a certain number of points.... so would you want 1 God-Tier Spell/Wand or maybe 2 minor perks and 2 decent spells.

Also- lately for the first time I've started having good luck with health pickups. But for a while there I was lucky to hit 200HP by the end of the Snow Caverns. I've lately been hitting 400-600 HP on a given run (Which for me is awesome) but I know good old RNG will taketh away soon.

It's a Rogue-like, though, so I expect it to be brutal and unfair with occasional amazing luck.

[AlluMan96]

Originally posted by Jimmerzz:

The game is a roguelike. Not every round you are going to be able to beat the game. The random element leads a lot to each round feeling different. I can understand where you are coming from in your statements.

There are mods that can make the game more forgiving.

This one you might like. Everytime you get to the heart between levels you have a respawn back there if you die once. https://modworkshop.net/mod/25975

While I agree to an extent, I make this case in the context to alot of other roguelikes I have played. The Binding of Isaac is just about doable in most runs so long as you game the system, check for every secret, abuse the store and get in every devil/angel deal you can. Risk of Rain 2 allows you two option between pushing your luck and speedrunning to outpace the difficulty scaling or taking your time and loading up, giving if not more control, then at least the convincing illusion of control to every run. Enter the Gungeon is probably the most comparable equivalent to how you start with nothing and loot is very randomly effective, yet even that game makes you much stronger at base, giving you that baseline I mentioned to work from. What I'm getting at is that a dead-end run that is bound for failure should be the exception rather than the rule if you ask me. In a harder difficulty like Nightmare, I expect RNG to destroy me often, but not the default difficulty.

I suppose modding could help in that regard, although for me, I like evaluating the game on the merits it's being sold to me at base. I'm just anal about that sort of thing. I appreciate game design and like to analyze it as it is. I would like to make 1 run cleared with just vanilla content, because it is the intended experience the developers laid out, if you catch my drift. This is a grave I dig for myself, but it's just how I am.

[AlluMan96]

Originally posted by Jayne_Cobb:

For me, Noita is a game that is just fun playing and fooling around in.
Reaching the end is more of an optional goal. I have so much fun, after
about 110 hours in, 140 deaths and one win. Experiencing the mayhem,
the Falling Everything Engine, all the possibilities, combinations and even
the sudden unexpected deaths are all part of the charm for me.

Recently I had a wonderful run, fire resistence, explosion resistence, 700
hit points by just fooling around not actively going for locations, a wand that
cast 15 spells at once, loaded with shotgun spells, fire, acid and explosion on
impact. It was some beautiful madness. Then I dropped on a pixel of that stuff
that mutates you, got transformed into a sheep, caught fire, died. :'D
But that's fine. I'm already curious what the next run throws at me.

I actually enjoy not optimizing to reach the end. For me, there are
enough games that focus on it, or min-maxing your skills/attributes,
to reach the end, the goal. Noita reminds me of the time, playing
games as a kid on the C-64, Atari 2600 or later the SNES.

So many games, that you played so many times, with friends,
that you never saw the end, but just had a blast playing it. =)

It is generally how I have been having run with the game as well. It's the only reason I even made this comment in the first place. I could have just dropped this game on multiple occasions, but it's just too damn good to dismiss and it is because it has that quality of just going in and seeing what wacky shenanigans the game throws me in. Comparing it specifically to an old C-64 or DOS game I think is very apt and I have even used that comparison in the past. I suppose if we look at it from the angle of "Winning is secondary", then it's just a matter of a conflict of mentalities between me and the game. I am strongly goal-oriented. While pissing about is a fun enough time-waster from time to time, I need at least something all of the pissing about is working towards.

I suppose another thing this game could consider in that case is some more minor goals to aim towards. A bit of positive reinforcement to keep trying everything and anything you can do in the game, keep the player stimulated on the way towards the overarching goal of completion. While I can hear some hardcore roguelike enthusiasts groan at the thought of it, I think adding more unlockables you get from doing different things in the game could tremendously help ease the stress for completion-nuts like me and encourage players to engage with the more obscure mechanics of the game. I'm talking stuff like unlocking a spell or new type of starting witch by causing a quota of fire-damage on a single run or killing a certain amount of enemies with environmental explosives like gunpowder-crates or barrels. At the very least, making such things just achievements could be something I can focus on while not technically striving for that endgame completion.

[Jimmerzz]

Originally posted by DD AlluMan96:

Originally posted by Jimmerzz:

The game is a roguelike. Not every round you are going to be able to beat the game. The random element leads a lot to each round feeling different. I can understand where you are coming from in your statements.

There are mods that can make the game more forgiving.

This one you might like. Everytime you get to the heart between levels you have a respawn back there if you die once. https://modworkshop.net/mod/25975

While I agree to an extent, I make this case in the context to alot of other roguelikes I have played. The Binding of Isaac is just about doable in most runs so long as you game the system, check for every secret, abuse the store and get in every devil/angel deal you can. Risk of Rain 2 allows you two option between pushing your luck and speedrunning to outpace the difficulty scaling or taking your time and loading up, giving if not more control, then at least the convincing illusion of control to every run. Enter the Gungeon is probably the most comparable equivalent to how you start with nothing and loot is very randomly effective, yet even that game makes you much stronger at base, giving you that baseline I mentioned to work from. What I'm getting at is that a dead-end run that is bound for failure should be the exception rather than the rule if you ask me. In a harder difficulty like Nightmare, I expect RNG to destroy me often, but not the default difficulty.

I suppose modding could help in that regard, although for me, I like evaluating the game on the merits it's being sold to me at base. I'm just anal about that sort of thing. I appreciate game design and like to analyze it as it is. I would like to make 1 run cleared with just vanilla content, because it is the intended experience the developers laid out, if you catch my drift. This is a grave I dig for myself, but it's just how I am.

It is worth mentioning that the game currently is not what is intended. The game is in early access so there are things not fleshed out. There recently got added gamemode screen to the game. Think of mods as alternate game modes.

Hell the developer themselves added a mod to the game by default that people are supposed to use to make the start more varied.

If the game was full release I would understand what you mean but this is currently not the intended final experience and the developers themselves are wanting to add more gamemodes and stuff.

[Snobby Hobo]

You are completely right. Noita is painfully unrewarding to play to the bone, but the premise is interesting enough to still spend some time with. It's one of the extremely few games I would praise for being worth the purchase, but at the same time being unable to play more than two games in a row.

The source of frustration is also really easy to pinpoint; Noita relies on specific circumstances to an extreme degree. You can flip from completely pointlessly bad to completely overpowered like a flick of a switch, while having absolutely zero chance in later layers other times. The game's difficulty scaling is also completely terrible. I've, I think, won around 10 games now and I've literally not once in any of those 10 games had a problem with the last 2 layers(or any surface levels, besides the Works) and the boss. I would just find some crazy broken combination that would shred everything to bits. I've also been in later layers without overpowered wands, and then the game just further bashes you by throwing near indestructible enemies at your face.

The problem with this is that the game actually requires you to invest time to advance, and a lot of that time is the same dumb chore only to be met with impossible odds at the end if it anyway. It feels bad and unfun, and it's hard to argue it's not exactly that.

[clarkeveritas]

I bought this game for the physics system.... I had no idea how fun it would end up being such a fun game. I'm currently at 0-150 so I've had to leave my pride at the door on this one. I've played a lot of other Rogue-likes so I'm just used to the whole premise that I will die WAYYY more than your typical game. I appreciate games that make me be creative and try to break the game to beat it. It respects your intelligence.

[Vineheart01]

My only beef with the game currently is theyve added tons of spells but have not added more ways to get those spells.
Often i will have a run die purely because i NEVER found any spells (or wands for spells) i could use. Hell i had one game where i still legitimately had my base starter wand in Lv4....the ONLY other offense i had found was a singular large magic missile, which was strong but extremely limited since it was ONE of it.

Theres a lot of spells that i would love to try to combo with other spells but i NEVER get them together (example: i have yet to get both Speed Up and the Lightsaber to see if it extends the lightsabers reach)

I feel the shop needs to be doubled in size now. Way way way too often its single spells instead of wands and none of the spells help. At all. Ive gone entire runs without buying a single item, because im not going to buy Fire Trail, Spitters w/ Timers, or Sea of Whatever lol...

[Snobby Hobo]

Originally posted by Vineheart01:

My only beef with the game currently is theyve added tons of spells but have not added more ways to get those spells.
Often i will have a run die purely because i NEVER found any spells (or wands for spells) i could use. Hell i had one game where i still legitimately had my base starter wand in Lv4....the ONLY other offense i had found was a singular large magic missile, which was strong but extremely limited since it was ONE of it.

Theres a lot of spells that i would love to try to combo with other spells but i NEVER get them together (example: i have yet to get both Speed Up and the Lightsaber to see if it extends the lightsabers reach)

I feel the shop needs to be doubled in size now. Way way way too often its single spells instead of wands and none of the spells help. At all. Ive gone entire runs without buying a single item, because im not going to buy Fire Trail, Spitters w/ Timers, or Sea of Whatever lol...

I proposed the solution of adding in level shops(which exist, but are extremely rare) a very long time ago. If this were properly implemented you'd tackle two problems at once; the first layers wouldn't be as god awful boring and you'd reduce the RNG factor.

Downside is everyone is just going to continue going for the obvious wands if you reduce the rng in obtaining said spells.

[clarkeveritas]

More options at shops would completely fix the low % of any given spell showing up. Hell, even a "Pay-to-Reroll" deal with the spells like you have with the perks would even be great. I needs me my quad-cast Lightning more often. Or my patented "Super-Rapid-Fire-Bubble-Spell-with-That-AOE-Damage-Purple-Thingee" surrounding each one for an extra 3.5 damage. And that +10 buff of course. Rare to find all the ingredients in a given run.