Playing Optimally is a Chore

[Benal]

(This is my favorite game of this year, I won for the first time a few nights ago, tldr suggested changes at the bottom)

In a game like Spelunky, a good player will pick up all the money and items on the level that doesn't require resources, and then will consider spending resources like ropes or bombs if it returns a good chance for profit. This all happens in the span of 2 minutes and 30 seconds.

In Noita, a good player will scour the entire level, aggressively picking up any and all gold that can be picked up without harm, swapping out wands and flasks, and finding max hp. A good player will also cross the lava pit to get the lava pit drop (if it's there), collect the max hp from the orb in the orb room on the other side, collect the egg on the overworld to kill a worm and drink its blood to get the max hp in the dark cave, and also try to get to the overworld, if possible, and get any additional max hp from orbs and bonus wands they can find. This can take upwards of 40 minutes.

Things get even worse if you manage to find a digging tool like digging bolt or chainsaw on the next shop. If that happens, in order to play optimally, you'd have to dig up each of the 100s of gold veins in the coal pits. This can end up feeling an awful lot like the worst mechanic in Spelunky, diamond farming the ghost, which can bring completion time of a single level in Spelunky up to 10 or 15 minutes rather than the typical 2 minutes 30 seconds.

The issue at hand isn't even necessarily the time it takes to complete these levels (in Noita) it's that you're doing the exact same thing every time. Picking up the egg on the tree is cool the first time it happens, but it never gets any more interesting in subsequent playthroughs. Same with crossing the lava pit, it never gets any harder or more exciting. And crossing the desert certainly doesn't get more exciting with repetition.

This isn't to say that unique moments like these are bad. They're super cool and make Noita unique. Roguelike players should not be rewarded for doing things that never change, they should be rewarded for doing things that are always different.

Things I'd love to see changed
- Remove all guaranteed item drop locations (dark cave max hp, lava pit item drop, pyramid wands, etc)
- Remove max hp from orbs you've already collected (and increase the max hp drop rate in the normal levels to compensate)
- Give players better rewards for exploring the collapsed mines and other side areas. The three high tiered wands in the pyramid are often run defining, but really aren't that challenging to get if you have the explosives. Would the game be worse off if similarly tiered wands could be found in the collapsed mines instead? (maybe not quite that high tier, but you get what I mean)
- Significantly reduce the number of gold veins. Like, really really significantly reduce.

[Parere Pare]

eh, yeah i think for the most part your suggestions are good

[Shrinkshooter]

Originally posted by Benal:

- Significantly reduce the number of gold veins. Like, really really significantly reduce.

I won't comment on the other stuff because I don't have much of a strong opinion on any of it, but I'll address this. No, do not significantly reduce gold veins. This doesn't fix any actual problem, it's a psychological cope on the part of a certain kind of player. "if there are fewer veins, I'll spend less time trying to dig for them all" is the rationale.

First, this is an issue with you, not the game. No one and nothing is forcing you to minmax. You aren't obligated to do so, especially with how random things can be; all it takes it finding one wand and you're on top of the world. Gold is insanely abundant, where I'm ending games with 40-50k on average (collected in total over the game). You are not required to go digging for every vein, nor is it even advisable, nor would it even do you any good. You'd have far more gold than you need at that point and you wasted tons of time mining stuff you can't use even were you to buy everything in sight.

Second, as I said, this is a coping mechanism. This doesn't solve anything. Instead of being able to restrict your own behavior, you want the very game mechanics to change so the game itself restricts your behavior. "I can't stop myself from digging for all the gold in the universe, so I want there to be less gold in the universe, so I don't waste nearly as much time with my obsessive compulsion. It will force me to move on because I don't have the willpower to do so." What the hell would you do if the entire Coal Pits was made out of gold? You would waste two hours drilling every single pixel? That is a problem with the player, not a game problem.

Third, even if this was a legitimate "problem," it doubly isn't solved by doing this. Instead of spending vast amounts of time trying to dig everything up, you'll spend vast amounts of time trying to make sure you didn't miss anything. You're trading one autistic target for another one.

Finally, you say "playing optimally." Goes back to my comment about minmaxing. "Playing optimally" is not the only way to play nor is it the sole metric by which to gauge "good" play. You can also, for example, play efficiently, which in the case of Noita would be taking whatever actions have the highest likelihood of allowing you to progress in the shortest amount of time. And that doesn't involve digging through dirt like a chipmunk trying to escape a grenade until there's no gold left. In fact if you wanted to be efficient, you'd barely collect any more than 1 or 2k worth of gold by drilling in the Coal Pits. Nobody is forcing you to play either way, and any kind of pressure to do so is placed on you by yourself. Sometimes playing "optimally" in the colloquial sense means knowing where to draw the line: maybe I shouldn't check every single wand in every single level, maybe I shouldn't kill every single enemy and try to collect every gold nugget, maybe I shouldn't obsess about trying to collect every max health heart.

The ultimate point here is this is a terrible mindset. You want to make the game more restrictive so it forces restrictions you can't enforce upon yourself, which will in turn restrict all the rest of us who aren't victims of such compulsive behavior. At best, you can ask someone to make a mod for you, or learn how to mod yourself, in order to realize your wish. Play the game to have fun. Play the game to win. If "playing optimally is a chore," don't play optimally, and you don't need to even come REMOTELY close to "optimal play" in order to win.

[The Mongoose]

/thread

[Benal]

Originally posted by Shrinkshooter:

Finally, you say "playing optimally." Goes back to my comment about minmaxing. "Playing optimally" is not the only way to play nor is it the sole metric by which to gauge "good" play. You can also, for example, play efficiently, which in the case of Noita would be taking whatever actions have the highest likelihood of allowing you to progress in the shortest amount of time. And that doesn't involve digging through dirt like a chipmunk trying to escape a grenade until there's no gold left.

You're right, playing optimally isn't the only way to play, but it's an extremely common way for a person to want to play, especially for a game as difficult as Noita. When I say optimally, I don't mean obsessively, I just mean making the best use of the resources you have available. If I wanted to play efficiently, I just wouldn't care about the max hp above the pyramid. It would be really frustrating, however, if that 25 HP would have kept me from dying and the only thing keeping from from grabbing it was 10 extra minutes of my time.

Gold veins are a little different, though. The gold from it will often be inconsequential, but it's still there. Gold is the closest thing the game has to score, and once the game gets more filled out, people will start caring about getting high gold scores. Theoretically, the game could reach a point where you couldn't get a high score without mining out the coal mines, and that just sucks. I'm not even speaking as someone that would attempt to do this, I dug out gold veins for 30 minutes once and won't be doing it again. I just know that many people will want to do this for a high score, just look up Spelunky gold high score runs to see how many people are like that.

This all comes down to what kind of gameplay the game wants to promote. When you have a mechanic or feature in a game, you are promoting players to interact with it. It doesn't matter if everyone does it or only a handful of players do it, it matters. I just don't think Noita should promote players wasting an hour digging out gold. As another example, the most resource efficient way to get to the twisty passages is to drink all of the water in the dark cave. This takes like an insane amount of time, but it's possible to do, so the game promotes it as the best strategy. It's most certainly not the most time efficient strategy, but time isn't a game mechanic so it's irrelevant. There's a reason why modern RPGs restrict you from getting experience from low level enemies when you're at a high level: to prevent players from grinding the same enemies over and over for hours and hours to get to max level. If you're allowed to do something in a game, you are promoting it.

[Zhnigo]

"Given the freedom, a player will optimize the fun out of the game". It is the job of the game desinger to prevent this from happening.

While the gold vein issue is a little too far out for me, the rest of the suggestions are solid and agreeable. One could argue the gold veins could be made less numerous but more voluminous to make going after all of them more plausible and fun.

[matti_kuusisto]

As usual on this forum, I agree with many of the problems but disagree with the solutions. Some solutions are already there (The ∞ gold). Then there are suggestions to make the game easier or more similar to this game they already like while disregarding the design of this game.

Overworld exploration is a big part of this game, so please don't suggest something that totally makes the overworld exploration meaningless and gives the rewards instead in the dungeon.

[Shrinkshooter]

Originally posted by Benal:

It would be really frustrating, however, if that 25 HP would have kept me from dying and the only thing keeping from from grabbing it was 10 extra minutes of my time.

And it would be equally frustrating if you got hit for 1 hitpoint over your max, and that 10 minutes of time was ultimately wasted and may have been better spent playing more wisely during your trip to the bottom. This is what I meant by knowing where to draw the line. This isn't the gold issue, though, and like I said, I'm not commenting on anything but the gold.

Gold is the closest thing the game has to score, and once the game gets more filled out, people will start caring about getting high gold scores.

My thoughts on this are 1) that's the game's fault for using gold as a score, which should not be done, and then you don't have the issue you're talking about and 2) even if it is done, people choosing to sink massive amounts of time into a single run in order to get the highest score isn't a problem. I think that's stupid, but if someone is using gold as a score, it's inevitable that's going to happen. That's not a problem with there being "too much gold," that's a problem of using gold for scorekeeping and people dedicating time to tedium in order to get onto a leaderboard.

It doesn't matter if everyone does it or only a handful of players do it, it matters.

It DOES matter. If I choose to collect 1k gold and move on, that's my prerogative. I know there's more gold there if I want it. What doesn't matter is whether another player decides to go after all the gold in the Pits and wants the game to change for everyone because he doesn't want to spend all that time collecting all the gold. If he wants to go for all that gold, fine; the moment that starts affecting the game as a whole, that affects me, and that's NOT fine. If the game is "promoting" digging out all the gold, then that's a "promotion" I ignore, every single time, without effort or conscious thought.

I just don't think Noita should promote players wasting an hour digging out gold.

And I don't think players should waste an hour digging out gold. If people want to minmax, let them. If such minmaxing has consequences, like spending three hours doing tedious BS, too bad, that was your choice to minmax. No one should be catering to streamline the process for the singular group of people who want to minmax to the...well, maximum.

By this logic, Noita also "promotes" going and finding all the orbs and fighting the true end boss and visiting all the regions in a single run and finding all the essences and going to the sky altar...which plenty of people try to do once they've completed their first few runs. But people don't do that each and every time, just like they don't try drinking all the water in the dark tree roots, or collecting every single max health heart in the world. Why? Why don't players collect every single max health heart in the world? Why didn't YOU spend two hours digging gold? Because the overall benefit just isn't worth it. If you didn't bother spending two hours digging gold, that tells you right there your own suggestion doesn't need to be done. Even worse would be if you DID do that, and then got slaughtered the moment you stepped into Snowy Depths.

Game Design is important, but it's also important not to treat your players like idiots without agency or decision making of their own. As I said, the solution to this, for you, would be a mod. I still very much disagree this should be a game change foisted on the rest of us.

As another example, the most resource efficient way to get to the twisty passages is to drink all of the water in the dark cave. This takes like an insane amount of time, but it's possible to do, so the game promotes it as the best strategy.

It isn't promoted as a best strategy. It's simply a possibility that exists. You're projecting qualifications onto something. Nobody actually does this, and why would nobody actually do this? Because again, it is not worth it. Erego, it's not the best strategy, it's simply the safest and most reliable. But what does it say about your hypothesis when the "best" thing being "promoted" by the game isn't actually done by anyone?

If you're allowed to do something in a game, you are promoting it.

And as we just established, the game promoting "drink all the water in the dark flooded caves" means f**kall if nobody does it. Gamers' common sense is overriding the "promotion." Therefore, not every "promotion" in a game needs to be custom tailored to promote one's subjective take on "the right thing to promote."

[DJDiceZ]

Did no one really think about the best compromise between all aspects of gold mining?

Simple, make the veins appear less often, but make them bigger aswell (total ammount of gold/level can remain pretty much unchanged). This would make mining them more enjoyable in every ways for everyone.

[matti_kuusisto]

Originally posted by DJDiceZ:

Did no one really think about the best compromise between all aspects of gold mining?

Simple, make the veins appear less often, but make them bigger aswell (total ammount of gold/level can remain pretty much unchanged). This would make mining them more enjoyable in every ways for everyone.

That doesn't fix the problem of people with digging wands compulsively spending a lot of time finding all the gold on the map before moving on.

[ShnitzelKiller]

Imagine spending 40 minutes gold farming and going to all the memorized locations for extra HP only to have a worm anger the gods on the first level. That's the reason I don't bother, except for the one in the cave.

[Cot]

Originally posted by Shrinkshooter:

Originally posted by Benal:

It would be really frustrating, however, if that 25 HP would have kept me from dying and the only thing keeping from from grabbing it was 10 extra minutes of my time.

And it would be equally frustrating if you got hit for 1 hitpoint over your max, and that 10 minutes of time was ultimately wasted and may have been better spent playing more wisely during your trip to the bottom. This is what I meant by knowing where to draw the line. This isn't the gold issue, though, and like I said, I'm not commenting on anything but the gold.

Gold is the closest thing the game has to score, and once the game gets more filled out, people will start caring about getting high gold scores.

My thoughts on this are 1) that's the game's fault for using gold as a score, which should not be done, and then you don't have the issue you're talking about and 2) even if it is done, people choosing to sink massive amounts of time into a single run in order to get the highest score isn't a problem. I think that's stupid, but if someone is using gold as a score, it's inevitable that's going to happen. That's not a problem with there being "too much gold," that's a problem of using gold for scorekeeping and people dedicating time to tedium in order to get onto a leaderboard.

It doesn't matter if everyone does it or only a handful of players do it, it matters.

It DOES matter. If I choose to collect 1k gold and move on, that's my prerogative. I know there's more gold there if I want it. What doesn't matter is whether another player decides to go after all the gold in the Pits and wants the game to change for everyone because he doesn't want to spend all that time collecting all the gold. If he wants to go for all that gold, fine; the moment that starts affecting the game as a whole, that affects me, and that's NOT fine. If the game is "promoting" digging out all the gold, then that's a "promotion" I ignore, every single time, without effort or conscious thought.

I just don't think Noita should promote players wasting an hour digging out gold.

And I don't think players should waste an hour digging out gold. If people want to minmax, let them. If such minmaxing has consequences, like spending three hours doing tedious BS, too bad, that was your choice to minmax. No one should be catering to streamline the process for the singular group of people who want to minmax to the...well, maximum.

By this logic, Noita also "promotes" going and finding all the orbs and fighting the true end boss and visiting all the regions in a single run and finding all the essences and going to the sky altar...which plenty of people try to do once they've completed their first few runs. But people don't do that each and every time, just like they don't try drinking all the water in the dark tree roots, or collecting every single max health heart in the world. Why? Why don't players collect every single max health heart in the world? Why didn't YOU spend two hours digging gold? Because the overall benefit just isn't worth it. If you didn't bother spending two hours digging gold, that tells you right there your own suggestion doesn't need to be done. Even worse would be if you DID do that, and then got slaughtered the moment you stepped into Snowy Depths.

Game Design is important, but it's also important not to treat your players like idiots without agency or decision making of their own. As I said, the solution to this, for you, would be a mod. I still very much disagree this should be a game change foisted on the rest of us.

As another example, the most resource efficient way to get to the twisty passages is to drink all of the water in the dark cave. This takes like an insane amount of time, but it's possible to do, so the game promotes it as the best strategy.

It isn't promoted as a best strategy. It's simply a possibility that exists. You're projecting qualifications onto something. Nobody actually does this, and why would nobody actually do this? Because again, it is not worth it. Erego, it's not the best strategy, it's simply the safest and most reliable. But what does it say about your hypothesis when the "best" thing being "promoted" by the game isn't actually done by anyone?

If you're allowed to do something in a game, you are promoting it.

And as we just established, the game promoting "drink all the water in the dark flooded caves" means f**kall if nobody does it. Gamers' common sense is overriding the "promotion." Therefore, not every "promotion" in a game needs to be custom tailored to promote one's subjective take on "the right thing to promote."

Someone doesn't understand human psychology lmao, let me guess, you are a big ben shapiro fan and everything works when it exists in the vacuum of logic and reason. Humans don't work like how you pretend they work, I think you have autism.

[Pickupsticks]

Imagine being mad about routing in a exploration roguelike

[Shrinkshooter]

Originally posted by Ahegao:

Someone doesn't understand human psychology lmao

"Nuh uh you're wrong!" isn't an argument lmao
I don't think you understand arguments rofl
You have assburgers or something?
Y u mad tho?

On a serious note Shapiro is a hypocrite of the biggest proportions. Facts don't care about your feelings unless you're like Ben and feel really strongly about certain things like Israel or Michelle Fields. Anyway, I see you like to find excuses to shoehorn in your personal opinions about random crap for no reason.

[Lordly Cinder]

Originally posted by Shrinkshooter:

Originally posted by Ahegao:

Someone doesn't understand human psychology lmao

"Nuh uh you're wrong!" isn't an argument lmao
I don't think you understand arguments rofl
You have assburgers or something?
Y u mad tho?

On a serious note Shapiro is a hypocrite of the biggest proportions. Facts don't care about your feelings unless you're like Ben and feel really strongly about certain things like Israel or Michelle Fields. Anyway, I see you like to find excuses to shoehorn in your personal opinions about random crap for no reason.

Thats prolly becuz shapiro is a zionist just like Joe Biden... They are conmen like whats his name joe rogan and his twitter buddy? Rat poisen is 99.99% good food.. Thats how they get you to eat it. To trust it..

btw Zionism is Not judiasm or however you spell it. It has nothing to do with what we call the old testament except theres a mountain called mt zion ect.. But the zionists are into occult. Biden is on video talking about how you dont have to be jewish to be a zionist.. Shapiro is a never trumper but he pretends he supports him now.. Whether u like or hate trump thats flip floping. He also said hes only doing it because someone is paying him too...

Ya I do not like him..

[Lordly Cinder]

So on topic there's not all that much to buy... I usually barely mine once i get the right tool. Its mostly for travel wish it could break the very dense rock faster if at all.

I use it to regain my health in dark root after coming back up from the level 3.. Also to explore before..

So I feel like these problems do have a solution and it isnt messing with the gold but having certain items ect to make travel quicker.. Either mark and recall that would be awesome or something like lets say.. a magic minecart that flies like a magic carpet... A whole new WORLD!!! A Dazzzling PLACE I never knew cuz when im way up here theres raining lava Now im in a whole new wordl with me!!!!!!!!!! hum hum hummmmmmmmmmm..

ok never mention this to another soul.. Alkemists code!! Happens in noita stays in noita..