tier list?

[Baru]

any character tier lists yet? since the game has been out for good while now

[brunolm]

DPS is the only thing that matters, if you have DPS you can do end game content more easily. If you don't have DPS there are a couple bosses that insta kill you.

Buffs and debuffs are irrelevant in the endgame.

Freeze, slow, paralyze cooldowns are so big that you only get to use 1 time during the fight

[iammori]

CHAO$$$ の投稿を引用：

iammori の投稿を引用：

--
p.s. to use as an AI I haven't seen better testing than this chart https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQnjNgthx2czxgVM56VDlq_bX0l7TUYazNoT2VplO0uNxEXe4vty3ZpShCGFgPwFHqnRiNAGQZQ1VJz/pubhtml#

There are some really really sus things in this chart even if you ignore the issues with the testing method itself (30 seconds on dummy lmao) and 1 bossfight.

If you look at the test data, id ends up being top 2 boss clear times but middleish in 30 seconds (prolly because no dragonform if i had to guess). And that somehow makes the author give him one of the lowest scores for damage and value him the lowest despite him having 2 slows for 1 skillslot.

Captain and Cagliostro both have terrible 30 sec dps and boss clear times but are valued A-tier for their buffs.
Like if youre not optimizing your loadout to the point where your damage output is optimal before you have to rely on an AI to give you damage buffs on a cooldown - what are you even doing?

Katalina has one of the slowest boss clears BY FAR!!! and somehow ends up in A-tier.

Like really what is he doing.

Well we gotta wait til there's better data set to reference. Other metric for AI tier list i've been seeing are all just tests on dummy (where Id, Zeta, Charlotta, Io, Cag were S tier).

Author does explain on first page what his damage value formula equates to which explains Id's placement in author's opinion, its due to Id being unreliable.

I do agree that you shouldn't rely on buffs of the AIs for maximizing your dmg late game.

There are some places in tier list I do disagree with but I do appreciate the work done here and I can understand the author's thought process in making the list, it is more reasonable than most of the click bait tier list I've seen online so far.

p.s. also do note that game is very... very casual at the current state of game and difficulty. All these are for reference and interesting data you don't have to min-max at all.

[CHAO$$$]

iammori の投稿を引用：

CHAO$$$ の投稿を引用：

There are some really really sus things in this chart even if you ignore the issues with the testing method itself (30 seconds on dummy lmao) and 1 bossfight.

If you look at the test data, id ends up being top 2 boss clear times but middleish in 30 seconds (prolly because no dragonform if i had to guess). And that somehow makes the author give him one of the lowest scores for damage and value him the lowest despite him having 2 slows for 1 skillslot.

Captain and Cagliostro both have terrible 30 sec dps and boss clear times but are valued A-tier for their buffs.
Like if youre not optimizing your loadout to the point where your damage output is optimal before you have to rely on an AI to give you damage buffs on a cooldown - what are you even doing?

Katalina has one of the slowest boss clears BY FAR!!! and somehow ends up in A-tier.

Like really what is he doing.

Well we gotta wait til there's better data set to reference. Other metric for AI tier list i've been seeing are all just tests on dummy (where Id, Zeta, Charlotta, Io, Cag were S tier).

Author does explain on first page what his damage value formula equates to which explains Id's placement in author's opinion, its due to Id being unreliable.

I do agree that you shouldn't rely on buffs of the AIs for maximizing your dmg late game.

There are some places in tier list I do disagree with but I do appreciate the work done here and I can understand the author's thought process in making the list, it is more reasonable than most of the click bait tier list i've seen online so far.

I really think its just a prime example of why tierlists are bad when you remove most of the context. And in this particular case the context that was chosen by the author is just pretty damn bad for evaluation.

At that point just sharing observations about AI behaviour would be infinitely more useful than what he posted.

[brunolm]

Well we gotta wait til there's better data set to reference. Other metric for AI tier list i've been seeing are all just tests on dummy (where Id, Zeta, Charlotta, Io, Cag were S tier).

Dummy is not ideal to test it, because for example Eugen charged shot only hits 2 times instead of 3.

A good parameter can be on Proto Baha, you can use this program to calculate your DPS there:

There is a mod that watches the game's memory and calculates how much damage you're doing. You can download it here on Nexus Mod: Scuffed GBFR Parser
https://www.nexusmods.com/granbluefantasyrelink/mods/22?tab=files

Alternatively, if you know some basics of coding and want to run from the source code directly you can run this with Python: https://github.com/sjieh/scuffed-gbfr-parser

Numbers I got:

Eugen: 4:04 - 77M - 319k
Narmaya: 5:10 - 56M - 181k
Lancelot: 5:24 - 64M - 198k

In theory Rackam can do as much damage as Eugen or more, at least that's what you see in a dummy test. But it uses glass canon and berserk.

The numbers above are all without glass canon or berserk, with potions, auto revive, guts

[iammori]

brunolm (神 Knx) の投稿を引用：

Well we gotta wait til there's better data set to reference. Other metric for AI tier list i've been seeing are all just tests on dummy (where Id, Zeta, Charlotta, Io, Cag were S tier).

Dummy is not ideal to test it, because for example Eugen charged shot only hits 2 times instead of 3.

A good parameter can be on Proto Baha, you can use this program to calculate your DPS there:

https://imgur.com/a/CnIse5F

There is a mod that watches the game's memory and calculates how much damage you're doing. You can download it here on Nexus Mod: Scuffed GBFR Parser
https://www.nexusmods.com/granbluefantasyrelink/mods/22?tab=files

Alternatively, if you know some basics of coding and want to run from the source code directly you can run this with Python: https://github.com/sjieh/scuffed-gbfr-parser

Numbers I got:

Eugen: 4:04 - 77M - 319k
Narmaya: 5:10 - 56M - 181k
Lancelot: 5:24 - 64M - 198k

In theory Rackam can do as much damage as Eugen or more, at least that's what you see in a dummy test. But it uses glass canon and berserk.

The numbers above are all without glass canon or berserk, with potions, auto revive, guts

Oh nice I wasn't aware of the parser this is super neat thank you for sharing this :D

[CHAO$$$]

iammori の投稿を引用：

CHAO$$$ の投稿を引用：

There are some really really sus things in this chart even if you ignore the issues with the testing method itself (30 seconds on dummy lmao) and 1 bossfight.

If you look at the test data, id ends up being top 2 boss clear times but middleish in 30 seconds (prolly because no dragonform if i had to guess). And that somehow makes the author give him one of the lowest scores for damage and value him the lowest despite him having 2 slows for 1 skillslot.

Captain and Cagliostro both have terrible 30 sec dps and boss clear times but are valued A-tier for their buffs.
Like if youre not optimizing your loadout to the point where your damage output is optimal before you have to rely on an AI to give you damage buffs on a cooldown - what are you even doing?

Katalina has one of the slowest boss clears BY FAR!!! and somehow ends up in A-tier.

Like really what is he doing.

Well we gotta wait til there's better data set to reference. Other metric for AI tier list i've been seeing are all just tests on dummy (where Id, Zeta, Charlotta, Io, Cag were S tier).

Author does explain on first page what his damage value formula equates to which explains Id's placement in author's opinion, its due to Id being unreliable.

I do agree that you shouldn't rely on buffs of the AIs for maximizing your dmg late game.

There are some places in tier list I do disagree with but I do appreciate the work done here and I can understand the author's thought process in making the list, it is more reasonable than most of the click bait tier list I've seen online so far.

p.s. also do note that game is very... very casual at the current state of game and difficulty. All these are for reference and interesting data you don't have to min-max at all.

For some reason i cant edit my previous post o.O

anyway to expand on my comment that this spreadsheet is bad because the context chosen by the author is bad and the authors value system is bad

addressing what you said:
Id is not inconsistent. The top 2 bosskill time he got is an average out of 10 or so runs (see stats in the doc). So thats incredibly consistently good. He just doesnt function on a 30 second dummy because most likely the AI didnt start the rotation with dragonform (in which case a 30 second test would give better results)

That is also my guess why Katalina did so insanely bad in the boss fights and so well in the 30 second damage test, if the AI likes to instantly use her skill that gives her infinite ares for like 10-15 seconds then she can do a lot in that time and becomes completely worthless after.

See how those descriptions of AI behaviour are more useful than the arbitrary tier list he posted?

[Toffe]

Obviously the captain, partly due to being the Singularity, but mostly because of Miserable Mist.

Just kidding, although if anything other than 4 Light is top tier on Proto Bahamut I'm done with this game.

[CHAO$$$]

Toffe の投稿を引用：

Obviously the captain, partly due to being the Singularity, but mostly because of Miserable Mist.

Just kidding, although if anything other than 4 Light is top tier on Proto Bahamut I'm done with this game.

war elemental lets you not care about elemental weakness at all and is basically a staple lategame sigil

[Toffe]

CHAO$$$ の投稿を引用：

Toffe の投稿を引用：

Obviously the captain, partly due to being the Singularity, but mostly because of Miserable Mist.

Just kidding, although if anything other than 4 Light is top tier on Proto Bahamut I'm done with this game.

war elemental lets you not care about elemental weakness at all and is basically a staple lategame sigil

Alright, guess that's in place of different variants then. Would have preferred they just let you change Captain's element and fill in the rest with the available variants.

[Tiasmoon]

brunolm (神 Knx) の投稿を引用：

DPS is the only thing that matters, if you have DPS you can do end game content more easily. If you don't have DPS there are a couple bosses that insta kill you.

Buffs and debuffs are irrelevant in the endgame.

Freeze, slow, paralyze cooldowns are so big that you only get to use 1 time during the fight

DPS is not the only thing that matters.

Freeze, Slow, Paralyze even if only used once in a fight can massively lower the time it takes to complete it since it allows overdrive phases to be skipped. So every character has one of these (with slow being weaker then the other) is just stronger then a comparable character that doesnt have it.

[Chris.T]

they all perform the same bro. But if you want to avoid doo doo just ignore ID and Sigfried.

[ChaosFred]

Well, after 2 days since my last answer here. I spent my time a lot in practice mode, testing some builds on each character, every moves and skills, trying to find "what is broken?" on every character. No overmastery set yet because that is too random.

So far, I must say most characters are pretty balanced with specialization on their role, except two whom feels "weaker" and "not fun" : Captain and Ghandagoza. For same reason stated in my previous post.

I pulled Siegfried off the weak list because he is actually good at enemies with less scripted camera. While Rosetta just need her party to stay within her circle just like Vane.

For other characters, Lets say:
* Narmaya is just your all-around top DPS that excels at any except flying targets but lacking on defensive to counter certain bosses if she is alone or drawn the aggro. Which then comes...
* Charlotta, the "less DPS" than Narmaya but has more defensive feature. She takes "less skill to play on some area and more on the others".
* Yodarha and Zeta both are very high skill ceiling character relying on timing of their "invincibility". If you managed to do so, you would be like those Long Blade speedrunners on MonHunt or LetMeSoloHer in Elden Ring. Very high DPS and untouchable. Recommended to master if you want to be solo speedrunners against challenge boss like G&M or Pyet-A,
* Percival is offering mid tier performance but all basics you want to learn, better than the Captain.
* Vaseraga plays are "heavy"; When the scythe hits, it hurts af. But even a monkey may evade a falling durian from the tree. Also if you want to be chad showing 7 digits damage often on the field.
* Ferry and Lancelot are more utility based specialization. So their value depends on the target. Lancelot most likely valued higher especially against certain bosses/farming target, but Ferry has better average across the board.
* Rosetta and Vane are team support. Don't ask more.
* Katalina is the middle girl between support and utility specialization. But she falls a bit short on every area instead due to her "broken" unique mechanic. Her Ares meter takes at least 4 registrations to summon which is very slow.
* Id, Siegfried and Io if left uninterrupted can deal huge dps. By interruption, this including uncoordinated "interruption" from teammates like SBA and link attacks. Funny thing about Id is he parries and guards a lot during story scenes. Heck, he even blocked one of the lazor beam. But, his actual gameplay only has ONE counter which also a skill. Like "cmon dude, you are carrying a big sword. Can not even use it to block?" .

For the characters with "broken" stuffs
* Rackam => Aerial barrage, don't ask. Highest DPS ever to single target, very broken OP for very easy play especially against any big / not moving targets like Proto, Bahamut Versa and the practice dummy. Good thing he doesn't have any defensive method. Now, if you really want to speedrun with all perfect dodges/guards only and no need any other defensive method, this character is most likely your choice.
* Eugen => Rivals above, less OP but better at overall any targets and AoE.
* Cagliostro => She supports, she hits hurt, she got AoE ranged and she is cute. She got DPS for just every kind of target, you just have to know which moves best for which target. Practically Narmaya but better/easier especially on larger targets

[brunolm]

ChaosFred の投稿を引用：

Well, after 2 days since my last answer here. I spent my time a lot in practice mode, testing some builds on each character, every moves and skills, trying to find "what is broken?" on every character. No overmastery set yet because that is too random.

So far, I must say most characters are pretty balanced with specialization on their role, except two whom feels "weaker" : Captain and Ghandagoza

Use this and write down the numbers so we can see if they really are "equal"

There is a mod that watches the game's memory and calculates how much damage you're doing. You can download it here on Nexus Mod: Scuffed GBFR Parser
https://www.nexusmods.com/granbluefantasyrelink/mods/22?tab=files

Alternatively, if you know some basics of coding and want to run from the source code directly you can run this with Python: https://github.com/sjieh/scuffed-gbfr-parser

Fight Proto Baha

[ChaosFred]

brunolm (神 Knx) の投稿を引用：

ChaosFred の投稿を引用：

Well, after 2 days since my last answer here. I spent my time a lot in practice mode, testing some builds on each character, every moves and skills, trying to find "what is broken?" on every character. No overmastery set yet because that is too random.

So far, I must say most characters are pretty balanced with specialization on their role, except two whom feels "weaker" : Captain and Ghandagoza

Use this and write down the numbers so we can see if they really are "equal"

There is a mod that watches the game's memory and calculates how much damage you're doing. You can download it here on Nexus Mod: Scuffed GBFR Parser
https://www.nexusmods.com/granbluefantasyrelink/mods/22?tab=files

Alternatively, if you know some basics of coding and want to run from the source code directly you can run this with Python: https://github.com/sjieh/scuffed-gbfr-parser

Fight Proto Baha

I usually just used Sir barrold under various variation setting: time limit 30/60 seconds and combative and reactive off/on. Then few runs on Pyet-A and Proto with party. If feels good, a solo try and see how far I made.

Also, it is not only DPS matter but more factored as well how much play skill it takes to reach that and how much safety/defensive the character has.

Ghandagoza actually offers above than average DPS. If I am to split DPS tier characters to 5 tiers, he would be 2nd or 3rd from top, But to achieve this requires perfect timing of all his attacks just like Siegfried. The problem? his attacks timing is somehow "feels harder". Unlike Siegfried, Ghanda's perfect timing window feels like placed more before than the attack hits and thus less smaller window after the attack impact. Added with all of those camera problem, you would rely more on "Sound" which only happens when or just moment before the attack hits.
-----
If there is mod I want, it would be mod to indicate when the perfect timing window for characters or how long channeling/charge required (like a "meter bar"). Also a "timer" which display how much "seconds:minutes" left for skill cooldowns.

[SIR RETARDUS]

See, everyone have their own tierlist and already fighting each other here. They have their own bias, and testing things in their own different way. The players who play them are also different. So honestly, why does it matter? Play what you like or suit your gameplay. This is not a competition. I can understand if people want something meta in pvp games, but why in gbfr? Imagine limiting your fun just because some internet dude say that A is better than B in a coop game. Come on bro.