Can we get AA12?

[DIABLO[SA]]

Would be nice. Or some kind of clip based aa12.

Also drum mags for rifles would be nice too.

[Wight]

I think a Saiga would be more likely, since it is still in both production and use all over the world, atleast among police and civilians.

AA12 is more of a popculture weapon although not as bad as the Pancor Jackhammer since it is more or less useable. Wouldn't surprise me if the SCP, Chaos Insurgency or even the GOC make their own cool version.

But a magzinefed semi-auto shotgun would be nice anyhow. Agreed.

[DIABLO[SA]]

Saiga 12 is fine I just wanted a drum loaded full auto shotgun.

As it stands right not shot guns are too slow to reload and not powerful enough and thus of no real use compared to smgs, rifles etc.

[Anonymousj-beam]

Originally posted by Castus:

I think a Saiga would be more likely, since it is still in both production and use all over the world, atleast among police and civilians.

AA12 is more of a popculture weapon although not as bad as the Pancor Jackhammer since it is more or less useable. Wouldn't surprise me if the SCP, Chaos Insurgency or even the GOC make their own cool version.

But a magzinefed semi-auto shotgun would be nice anyhow. Agreed.

I worked for the company that manufactured the AA12. And I can say from experience that there is nothing like it. It's almost not like shooting a shotgun as the recoil is practically non existent. And to top it off, the guns were very reliable. And it's a shame that there haven't been other shotguns based off of the same recoil system. They really are that gentle to shoot.

If it weren't for the fact that they are no longer produced (as you mentioned) the AA12 would hands down be the best choice as a modern mag fed tactical shotgun. The saigas really aren't all that great. I've seen more than a few fail during shotgun classes. They just don't seem to hold up all that well under the grime and prolonged fire during training.

[[LOKE]YourC3PH]

Originally posted by Anonymousj-beam:

Originally posted by Castus:

I think a Saiga would be more likely, since it is still in both production and use all over the world, atleast among police and civilians.

AA12 is more of a popculture weapon although not as bad as the Pancor Jackhammer since it is more or less useable. Wouldn't surprise me if the SCP, Chaos Insurgency or even the GOC make their own cool version.

But a magzinefed semi-auto shotgun would be nice anyhow. Agreed.

I worked for the company that manufactured the AA12. And I can say from experience that there is nothing like it. It's almost not like shooting a shotgun as the recoil is practically non existent. And to top it off, the guns were very reliable. And it's a shame that there haven't been other shotguns based off of the same recoil system. They really are that gentle to shoot.

If it weren't for the fact that they are no longer produced (as you mentioned) the AA12 would hands down be the best choice as a modern mag fed tactical shotgun. The saigas really aren't all that great. I've seen more than a few fail during shotgun classes. They just don't seem to hold up all that well under the grime and prolonged fire during training.

The AA12 was a favourite of mine. Why is it that they ceased production? I'd assume you know since you worked for them.

[Anonymousj-beam]

Originally posted by LOKEYourC3PH:

Originally posted by Anonymousj-beam:

I worked for the company that manufactured the AA12. And I can say from experience that there is nothing like it. It's almost not like shooting a shotgun as the recoil is practically non existent. And to top it off, the guns were very reliable. And it's a shame that there haven't been other shotguns based off of the same recoil system. They really are that gentle to shoot.

If it weren't for the fact that they are no longer produced (as you mentioned) the AA12 would hands down be the best choice as a modern mag fed tactical shotgun. The saigas really aren't all that great. I've seen more than a few fail during shotgun classes. They just don't seem to hold up all that well under the grime and prolonged fire during training.

The AA12 was a favourite of mine. Why is it that they ceased production? I'd assume you know since you worked for them.

TLDR: The guy who provided funding for the AA12 project was greedy and got pissed that an offer to sell the gun went to the actual owner of the design and not through him. So he pestered the ATF till they shut the whole thing down.

-----
Well where do I start with this absolute mess that was the AA12 project. I guess I'll start with an individual by the Name of Jerry Baber of Military Police Systems (MPS).
This is a bit of a longer story, but it gives a good understanding of how the entire project collapsed.

Jerry split the rights to the AA12 with an Individual by the name of Boje Cornils of BC Engineering. While both parties shared the rights to the shotgun, it was Cornils who was the brains behind it and its manufacturing, and the True owner of the AA12 design. Baber had only owned the tooling and molds required to make it, and was also provided the funding for it.

Jerry in the beginning only wanted military and police contracts for the AA12, with no civilian sales planned. I don't know if that was a contract thing with MPS or if he was some sort of government elitist (I'm thinking it was the latter). However not selling to the civilian market might as well be financial suicide, as it is by far the largest customer base there is in the firearms market. Turned out that would end up being the case as the gun got little to no traction in the contract market. I don't remember the exact numbers but I believe there were 20 or so examples sent to a security company in the UAE while the rest as far as I know were here in the US for demonstration purposes.

At this point it was Cornils who had decided to start manufacturing Civilian legal semi auto versions of the gun. However Jerry was upset with that decision and basically washed his hands of the entire project. So now Cornils is practically on his own financially as it was Baber who supplied the funding and connections from the beginning. Cornils did the best he could with the Semi auto versions but ended up selling off the the rights and tooling to a company by the name of Sol Invictus arms (SIA).

SIA's sole intention was to produce semi auto variants of the guns for civilian sales. However at this point I guess Jerry had gotten seriously pissed off by the fact that "his gun" was sold to SIA through Cornils and not through him. Originally SIA made an offer to buy the rights and tooling from Jerry Baber but he wanted far more money than what SIA thought was reasonable. That was until they discovered that it was in fact Cornils who had the rights to sell off the patent and tooling.

So good ole Jerry decided to contact the ATF and say that all the semi auto AA12's that had already been made were made on full auto parts kits and that they were easily convertible to machine guns. And if Jerry was able to convince the ATF that they were indeed made on full auto receivers, Cornils would have faced serious penalties, possibly jail time. In reality the full auto guns shared very little in common with the semi auto counter part mechanically. And the ATF already knew this and had approved the guns for civilian sale. I can also personally verify that the guns are mechanically different as I was able to handle both.

However Jerry continued to argue with and pester the ATF till they caved and decided to label all AA12's as machine guns. And since no machine gun made after 1986 can legally be owned by anyone in the US other than a licensed manufacturer, that completely killed all civilian sales and saw the existing semi auto AA12s confiscated or destroyed. Officially bringing an end to the AA12 project.

However it ended up backfireing on Jerry in the end. Lets go back to the beginning of Jerry and Cornils partnership. Come to find out, while Cornils was a licensed manufacturer when the civilian guns were being made, he was NOT licensed when the original full auto guns were being made. And Jerry knew that however he was writing down in his logbooks that the guns were being manufactured by him at his location under his license in Tennessee. And to Clarify, Cornils had a separate location from Jerry and it was Cornils who manufactured ALL the AA12s in existence until they were sold to SIA. Now I am not a licensed FFL holder myself however I believe any gun being made under your licence needs to be manufactured at the address listed on your license and not anywhere else. So as a result The ATF opened a criminal case against both Cornils And Jerry Baber.

Unfortunately I don't know the outcome of that case. But If I had to guess they likely both served jail time.

[Auto]

this thread is so important noone really knew actually what happened after sia with the aa 12

[Hellish Cyberdemon]

Originally posted by Anonymousj-beam:

Originally posted by LOKEYourC3PH:

The AA12 was a favourite of mine. Why is it that they ceased production? I'd assume you know since you worked for them.

TLDR: The guy who provided funding for the AA12 project was greedy and got pissed that an offer to sell the gun went to the actual owner of the design and not through him. So he pestered the ATF till they shut the whole thing down.

-----
Well where do I start with this absolute mess that was the AA12 project. I guess I'll start with an individual by the Name of Jerry Baber of Military Police Systems (MPS).
This is a bit of a longer story, but it gives a good understanding of how the entire project collapsed.

Jerry split the rights to the AA12 with an Individual by the name of Boje Cornils of BC Engineering. While both parties shared the rights to the shotgun, it was Cornils who was the brains behind it and its manufacturing, and the True owner of the AA12 design. Baber had only owned the tooling and molds required to make it, and was also provided the funding for it.

Jerry in the beginning only wanted military and police contracts for the AA12, with no civilian sales planned. I don't know if that was a contract thing with MPS or if he was some sort of government elitist (I'm thinking it was the latter). However not selling to the civilian market might as well be financial suicide, as it is by far the largest customer base there is in the firearms market. Turned out that would end up being the case as the gun got little to no traction in the contract market. I don't remember the exact numbers but I believe there were 20 or so examples sent to a security company in the UAE while the rest as far as I know were here in the US for demonstration purposes.

At this point it was Cornils who had decided to start manufacturing Civilian legal semi auto versions of the gun. However Jerry was upset with that decision and basically washed his hands of the entire project. So now Cornils is practically on his own financially as it was Baber who supplied the funding and connections from the beginning. Cornils did the best he could with the Semi auto versions but ended up selling off the the rights and tooling to a company by the name of Sol Invictus arms (SIA).

SIA's sole intention was to produce semi auto variants of the guns for civilian sales. However at this point I guess Jerry had gotten seriously pissed off by the fact that "his gun" was sold to SIA through Cornils and not through him. Originally SIA made an offer to buy the rights and tooling from Jerry Baber but he wanted far more money than what SIA thought was reasonable. That was until they discovered that it was in fact Cornils who had the rights to sell off the patent and tooling.

So good ole Jerry decided to contact the ATF and say that all the semi auto AA12's that had already been made were made on full auto parts kits and that they were easily convertible to machine guns. And if Jerry was able to convince the ATF that they were indeed made on full auto receivers, Cornils would have faced serious penalties, possibly jail time. In reality the full auto guns shared very little in common with the semi auto counter part mechanically. And the ATF already knew this and had approved the guns for civilian sale. I can also personally verify that the guns are mechanically different as I was able to handle both.

However Jerry continued to argue with and pester the ATF till they caved and decided to label all AA12's as machine guns. And since no machine gun made after 1986 can legally be owned by anyone in the US other than a licensed manufacturer, that completely killed all civilian sales and saw the existing semi auto AA12s confiscated or destroyed. Officially bringing an end to the AA12 project.

However it ended up backfireing on Jerry in the end. Lets go back to the beginning of Jerry and Cornils partnership. Come to find out, while Cornils was a licensed manufacturer when the civilian guns were being made, he was NOT licensed when the original full auto guns were being made. And Jerry knew that however he was writing down in his logbooks that the guns were being manufactured by him at his location under his license in Tennessee. And to Clarify, Cornils had a separate location from Jerry and it was Cornils who manufactured ALL the AA12s in existence until they were sold to SIA. Now I am not a licensed FFL holder myself however I believe any gun being made under your licence needs to be manufactured at the address listed on your license and not anywhere else. So as a result The ATF opened a criminal case against both Cornils And Jerry Baber.

Unfortunately I don't know the outcome of that case. But If I had to guess they likely both served jail time.

I always wondered what happened to that elitist, im glad he got his in the end for thing the gov would side with him, do you know who owns the rights to the AA-12 now? does MPS still have the rights? or can any old knucklehead with the blueprints manufacture them?