The graphical representation is very poor

[tom]

The gameplay is good, but the graphics are absolutely terrible even compared to the 23 years old version of Heroes of Might and Magic 3.
It's really hard work to recognize individual details and different characters on the map, even on a large screen. Unfortunately, the graphics are a blurry coarse pixel mush.
It's a shame, because Songs of Conquest would have been a really good game with sharper graphics.
A reason for me to play HOMM3 again after many years: together with the Horn of Abyss mod and the HD mod HOMM3 is absolutely perfect and great, the graphics there with the HD mod is a joy.

[Warrior at the Edge of Time]

The game definitely looks like a modern take on HOMM 1-3. The design is stylish, visually distinctive (simple to read). But! I still think Heroes IV direction was the way to go, it offered rich and diverse world where lots of stuff was happening simultaneously. I wonder what it would look like if HOMM IV got it's own remake? Maybe we'll find out in Songs of Conquest 2. ;)

[Morphic]

Publicado originalmente por sandman25dcsss:

Sharp figures, no visual clutter for HoMM:
https://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/297000/ss_ac673b05786cd600d3fb726e6027358888536bd5.jpg?t=1602603275
Diffused figures and lots of clutter for SoC:
https://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/867210/ss_c49de4ae16edf3a579dae10f7a90aff3f07be269.jpg?t=1660131089

To be fair you are comparing underground to surface. Underground in HoMM3 naturally doesn't have as much clutter due to the tileset compared to surface.

That said, I understand your sentiment. Personally, I do think HoMM3 looks great even today, especially since it doesn't really have that "pixelated" look to it whereas SoC looks heavily pixelated; especially on zoom ins.

However, people have to keep in mind that HoMM3 was created at the height of New World Computing's success right before their rapid decline. So you had a large team of designers/programmers versus a team of four.(NWC also reused/refined lots of assets between HoMM and MaM) Granted SoC has the backing of Coffee stain ... but I still think it is sort of apple/oranges comparison.

Perhaps it is a "skill issue" of the artists as SquareDildo pointed out, or maybe it's simply due to an execution of technique difference (like watercolors vs oil or lineart vs continuous tone). I don't think SoC looks bad, I can clearly tell unit/building differences at a glance. My only complaint with graphics is height difference/pathing is difficult to tell. Like, most times, I can't tell if something is raised on a cliff and I need to find a "ramp/slope" or if it is on level unless the height difference is significant.

[sandman25dcsss]

Publicado originalmente por Morphic:

To be fair you are comparing underground to surface. Underground in HoMM3 naturally doesn't have as much clutter due to the tileset compared to surface.

Fair. Here is surface.
https://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/297000/ss_548367faf1cfa549c88585cb9b01f13b05b05ab7.jpg?t=1602603275
IMHO main problem with SoC is that designers somehow think it is a good idea to cover whole surface with tiles of slightly different green color. Readability should be higher priority than realism. Just compare the trees in forests.
Also too low brightness is a problem.

I used to play coop and the game lacks good options even for player color so both human players wanted to play the same color to be able to better see owned locations on the map. Red is not red, orange is not orange, they are all like greys with different shades.

[Star Paladin]

Every other game is "Pixel Art" these days. Their reasoning is that it's neto cool retro dude, but in reality it's to make the game easier and cheaper to make. I like SoC game mechanics, but dislike the graphics.

In FACT, I just showed the game to a friend last weekend. He played the Loth, and he had THE worst time seeing the squares on the ground where he could construct his buildings, and had to hold CTL down constantly to tell where and what the items scattered around were.

[Morphic]

Publicado originalmente por sandman25dcsss:

IMHO main problem with SoC is that designers somehow think it is a good idea to cover whole surface with tiles of slightly different green color. Readability should be higher priority than realism. Just compare the trees in forests.
Also too low brightness is a problem.

Oh I agree. Like I said, I think HoMM3 looks great even today. If given the choice, I actually prefer HoMM3's style over SoC, even over the later iterations of HoMM, like 5 and 6. IMO, even something like Age of Wonders 1-2 have better readability most of the time. (Tho sometimes things can look so homogeneous it's like playing wheres waldo)

Publicado originalmente por Star Paladin:

Every other game is "Pixel Art" these days. Their reasoning is that it's neto cool retro dude, but in reality it's to make the game easier and cheaper to make.

From what I understand doing pixel art graphics can be significantly easier/cheaper than other methods. Though it still takes a lot of work since you basically need to create 4-8 versions per animation of a single sprite.

With regards to readability of building sites, I agree that in some cases it can be quite hard to discern them based on the tileset. Though I think telling if a building has been razed is a major problem, often times there is very little difference between the sprites of a razed structure and an intact one at least with certain backgrounds. E.g. Rana structures with swamp/temperate backgrounds.

[BBB]

The graphics in SoC are an artistic choice, not a technological limitation. Unity and Unreal are the biggest game engines, and both are free to start with, and the graphics there are "better" - by which I mean more readable.

And there are games from 20+ years ago that had better graphics.

I *like* SoC, like the gameplay loop, like the focused nature of it, like the gameplay limitations like city sizes (less so stack sizes, took me a while to figure out how to merge stacks) and I even like that you struggle to fill your army with all singing all dancing troops and often must make do with what is to hand.

But the gfx get in the way of the game.

Like items each taking a spot on the map - several games would put the items inside a bag on that map spot...

[SquareDildo]

I think Songs of Conquests looks *very* good. Very well executed pixel art. I have a small complaint that animation is too jerky - not enough frames. It's the same with the FPS game Prodeus. I also like Prodeus aesthetics a lot, but not enough frames of animation.

As for HOMM I prefer the looks of HOMM2 to HOMM3. I even think HOMM1 has its charm. Battles have ridiculous proportions like the Bayeux Tapestry or Battle of Crecy.

Songs of Conquest has lots of technological advantages over HOMM. There's nice lightning and various particle effects.

[Crystal]

The graphics was what wowed me enough to get it. Nice bait.

[PiercedEye]

I think the graphics are a matter of personal preference.

I like both styles, the one of HoMM3 and the one of SoC. Although I must say that I grew up with pixel styles. I bought HoMM3 when it first came out around 20 years ago, I grew up with the early Sierra and LucasArts adventures like King's Quest, Secret of Monkey Island an so on, so that may be a reason why I still enjoy pixelated graphics.
Also the devs brought many little details into the graphics of SoC and also mixed them with modern lighting effects. Looks lovely in my eyes.

Of course, younger players who never got to experience these older classics, only know currents graphics as in Civ6, Age of Empires 3, Tropico 6 etc. can be taken aback with pixelated graphics, and probably rightly so.

[Toni 'Bō' Jones]

Publicado originalmente por PiercedEye:

I think the graphics are a matter of personal preference.

I like both styles, the one of HoMM3 and the one of SoC. Although I must say that I grew up with pixel styles. I bought HoMM3 when it first came out around 20 years ago, I grew up with the early Sierra and LucasArts adventures like King's Quest, Secret of Monkey Island an so on, so that may be a reason why I still enjoy pixelated graphics.
Also the devs brought many little details into the graphics of SoC and also mixed them with modern lighting effects. Looks lovely in my eyes.

Of course, younger players who never got to experience these older classics, only know currents graphics as in Civ6, Age of Empires 3, Tropico 6 etc. can be taken aback with pixelated graphics, and probably rightly so.

I agree on that, completely. Very well said, thank you.

[sandman25dcsss]

Publicado originalmente por PiercedEye:

I think the graphics are a matter of personal preference.

I like both styles, the one of HoMM3 and the one of SoC. Although I must say that I grew up with pixel styles. I bought HoMM3 when it first came out around 20 years ago, I grew up with the early Sierra and LucasArts adventures like King's Quest, Secret of Monkey Island an so on, so that may be a reason why I still enjoy pixelated graphics.
Also the devs brought many little details into the graphics of SoC and also mixed them with modern lighting effects. Looks lovely in my eyes.

Of course, younger players who never got to experience these older classics, only know currents graphics as in Civ6, Age of Empires 3, Tropico 6 etc. can be taken aback with pixelated graphics, and probably rightly so.

This is all nice, but I played original HoMM1 when it was released and I still dislike SoC graphics. It is not about opinions, it is about bad quality which is objective.

PS. Some HoMM1 screenshots for younger players, just look at those beatiful mines and creatures from 27 (twenty seven) years ago:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/197553-heroes-of-might-and-magic/images?pid=197553&img=5
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/197553-heroes-of-might-and-magic/images?pid=197553&img=9

[Wizard of Woz]

Publicado originalmente por sandman25dcsss:

Publicado originalmente por PiercedEye:

I think the graphics are a matter of personal preference.

I like both styles, the one of HoMM3 and the one of SoC. Although I must say that I grew up with pixel styles. I bought HoMM3 when it first came out around 20 years ago, I grew up with the early Sierra and LucasArts adventures like King's Quest, Secret of Monkey Island an so on, so that may be a reason why I still enjoy pixelated graphics.
Also the devs brought many little details into the graphics of SoC and also mixed them with modern lighting effects. Looks lovely in my eyes.

Of course, younger players who never got to experience these older classics, only know currents graphics as in Civ6, Age of Empires 3, Tropico 6 etc. can be taken aback with pixelated graphics, and probably rightly so.

This is all nice, but I played original HoMM1 when it was released and I still dislike SoC graphics. It is not about opinions, it is about bad quality which is objective.

PS. Some HoMM1 screenshots for younger players, just look at those beatiful mines and creatures:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/197553-heroes-of-might-and-magic/images?pid=197553&img=5
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/197553-heroes-of-might-and-magic/images?pid=197553&img=9

It is definitely opinion. Personally I think those screenshots look like garbage compared to this game.

[sandman25dcsss]

Publicado originalmente por wizard_of_woz:

It is definitely opinion. Personally I think those screenshots look like garbage compared to this game.

I just found how I feel about SoC graphics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_noise
It is hard to see things on strategic map, figure borders are blurred, low contrast, low brightness etc.

[Toni 'Bō' Jones]

Publicado originalmente por sandman25dcsss:

It is not about opinions, it is about bad quality which is objective.

I disagree with that. 'Bad quality' is a very subjective term, regarding many things, especially medium like video games. You disliking Songs graphics and me liking it makes just two different opinions being present. Nothing more, nothing less. Neither of them are 'true', because there are many people who would either agree or disagree, or have an opinion somewhere in between.

I looked up your HoMM 1 screenshots, and I have to say they do look charming, Simple yet cute. I don't consider them ugly and I think visually game looks pretty decent, considering time it was made. But thing is - if Songs would look like anything like this, I would never play it, because it wouldn't be enough for me now. I just don't like it as much. Same goes for HoMM 3 which I personally played for a few years some time ago. While watching some Songs videos on YT I stumbled upon Heroes 3 videos and just watched them out of curiosity and realized that for my taste it didn't age well. Visually it looks old and outdated. And if Songs would have that same exact graphical representation now - I wouldn't be spending my time with it. What does it means? Nothing, it just my opinion which won't provide much value for you or many others.

I very much adore and enjoy Songs graphics as it is. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

I do agree with color visibility, however, and general readability. It's hard to distinguish two greens, two blues, or red and orange from one another on the map - both mini and world maps. I would like that to be improved. And when I first played Songs with my friend, I had issues of understanding what is what and I told my friend about that, who was around 20-30 hrs in. He was surprised about it, saying that everything seems fine and it's easy to read and understand the map. I adapted rather quickly and after learning objects and structures and I focused on the pixelated beauty of the game.

This, too, is my personal view and opinion. I can see and understand why people dislike the graphics, for various reasons. I disagree with the term 'objective', but I accept Songs being a niche game, for now, and I am personally super fine with that.

[sandman25dcsss]

Publicado originalmente por Toni 'Bō' Jones:

I do agree with color visibility, however, and general readability. It's hard to distinguish two greens, two blues, or red and orange from one another on the map - both mini and world maps. I would like that to improved. And when I first played Songs with my friend, I had issues to understand what is what and I told my friend about that, who was around 20-30 hrs in. He was surprised about it, saying that everything seems fine and it's easy to read and understand the map. I adapted rather quickly and after learning objects and structures and I focused on the pixelated beauty of the game.

This is exactly what I meant and I am pretty sure it can be measured by technical means, this is why I insist it is not about opinions. Anyway, this thread is hardly read by devs and I believe they are already aware of this issue so hopefully they will fix it some day. It is not like this graphics prevents me from playing, the game is still good enough to be playable.