Songs of Conquest

Songs of Conquest

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EnStorEn Aug 27, 2022 @ 12:27pm
Battle difficulty indicator is absurd, seems completely random
"medium" -> cue a single unit stack wiping out my whole army
Yeah great. Feels like the game is 90% waiting and slowly build an army, since losing an army is a massive punishment early game.
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Showing 1-15 of 35 comments
Underscorecow Aug 27, 2022 @ 10:02pm 
From what I percieve, battle difficulty doesnt seem to take into account spells and counters.

So medium against a wielder that is spell heavy might be very hard.
Last edited by Underscorecow; Aug 27, 2022 @ 10:03pm
Toni 'Bō' Jones Aug 28, 2022 @ 12:21am 
To be fair, it is all rather subjective and should be taken as an approximate outcome. When I first started playing and by that I mean being like 10 hours into the game, I've lost countless EASY battles, often in a row, to Barya troops, not knowing their faction, units, abilities very well. I'm not even talking about medium at that point. On the other hand I've won some worthy battles just because of the knowledge and experience I've gathered along the way and they felt rather easier - meaning that most likely battle indicator isn't always precisely correct, but just there to gibe you estimate of what to expect.

Another thing - I've won some easy battles, but with heavy losses and thought it was rather a medium one.

Slow build may or may not be efficient, depends on the map. Just play more, learn, take your loses as valuable experience and with time you will 'feel' this game more.
Vegetable Vampire Aug 28, 2022 @ 6:12am 
Originally posted by EnStorEn:
"medium" -> cue a single unit stack wiping out my whole army
Yeah great. Feels like the game is 90% waiting and slowly build an army, since losing an army is a massive punishment early game.

Battle difficulty seems to be mostly the game comparing the tier of your units to that of the enemy and see how many of which you got. For example basic, Cultists are horrible fighters, yet when matched against something of similar tier and numbers it does not tell you "impossible", even when it is.

As the dude before me said, rely on your personal experience and take into account what you are up against. Using low movement-melee units vs an all ranged army might not be the best idea, even when your units are 1 tier higher.
EnStorEn Aug 28, 2022 @ 7:29am 
Originally posted by Ob4m4 B1n L4den:
Originally posted by EnStorEn:
"medium" -> cue a single unit stack wiping out my whole army
Yeah great. Feels like the game is 90% waiting and slowly build an army, since losing an army is a massive punishment early game.

Battle difficulty seems to be mostly the game comparing the tier of your units to that of the enemy and see how many of which you got. For example basic, Cultists are horrible fighters, yet when matched against something of similar tier and numbers it does not tell you "impossible", even when it is.

As the dude before me said, rely on your personal experience and take into account what you are up against. Using low movement-melee units vs an all ranged army might not be the best idea, even when your units are 1 tier higher.
Yeah but it seems like a major design flaw when the game's indicator is basically useless and also means that unless you are fairly knowledgeable you have 0 idea if you can win or not. Great system for new players....
Toni 'Bō' Jones Aug 28, 2022 @ 11:22am 
Originally posted by EnStorEn:
also means that unless you are fairly knowledgeable you have 0 idea if you can win or not. Great system for new players....

But isn't it like that in every other game, leave alone strategy game with many different units, abilities and things to learn? There's a small opportunity you will do amazing at new game, but it's rather unlikely. I mean, it's like that with everything in life, literally - at first you just bad at everything and practice and repetition make the difference.

There's a great system for new players - it's called campaign and it will teach you basics plus how to think and act in critical scenarios. [Rana]. If you have played through both campaigns, you should have some understanding about the game, and with skirmish maps to practice you will get better and better. Honestly, soon you will make a topic how easily it is to beat AI, just you watch.

As for indicator, it isn't useless - it gives you approximate idea, which doesn't always should be correct. As I said, after playing more you will get better understanding and just looking at units you will know your chances. As an example above me about low movement melee units vs ranged troops - it all relies in the idea that you know the game.

To not be excellent in the beginning isn't that bad - it's quite normal. really. To stay that way after 100+ hours - that's where I would question my skills, and, maybe, the game.
Last edited by Toni 'Bō' Jones; Aug 28, 2022 @ 11:22am
EnStorEn Aug 28, 2022 @ 1:22pm 
Originally posted by Toni 'Bō' Jones:
Originally posted by EnStorEn:
also means that unless you are fairly knowledgeable you have 0 idea if you can win or not. Great system for new players....

But isn't it like that in every other game, leave alone strategy game with many different units, abilities and things to learn? There's a small opportunity you will do amazing at new game, but it's rather unlikely. I mean, it's like that with everything in life, literally - at first you just bad at everything and practice and repetition make the difference.

There's a great system for new players - it's called campaign and it will teach you basics plus how to think and act in critical scenarios. [Rana]. If you have played through both campaigns, you should have some understanding about the game, and with skirmish maps to practice you will get better and better. Honestly, soon you will make a topic how easily it is to beat AI, just you watch.

As for indicator, it isn't useless - it gives you approximate idea, which doesn't always should be correct. As I said, after playing more you will get better understanding and just looking at units you will know your chances. As an example above me about low movement melee units vs ranged troops - it all relies in the idea that you know the game.

To not be excellent in the beginning isn't that bad - it's quite normal. really. To stay that way after 100+ hours - that's where I would question my skills, and, maybe, the game.
No, because in most games "medium" doesn't randomly mean an undefeatable army that wipes you out without losses.
Peyote Aug 28, 2022 @ 5:38pm 
The game's difficulty indicator really isn't bad, but if you use Quick Battle they're not going to intelligently use your units. And if you're manually resolving Medium battles and regularly losing you're probably not actually using spells or units effectively or studying what the enemy wielder and their units can do.
EnStorEn Aug 28, 2022 @ 6:39pm 
Originally posted by Peyote:
The game's difficulty indicator really isn't bad, but if you use Quick Battle they're not going to intelligently use your units. And if you're manually resolving Medium battles and regularly losing you're probably not actually using spells or units effectively or studying what the enemy wielder and their units can do.
Literally had a battle where a single unit traversed the map and in 3 turns wiped my army, with all my units being able to kill 2. This was before I had a chance to aquire any real mana.,
Morphic Aug 28, 2022 @ 6:41pm 
Originally posted by EnStorEn:
No, because in most games "medium" doesn't randomly mean an undefeatable army that wipes you out without losses.

Except what was your Army? What was this "single stack" that wiped your entire army? Was there an enemy Wielder?

Say you had two stacks of Militia, and a stack of Minstrels, but then you go against a single stack of Knights... sure it's "possible" to win and it might be a "medium" fight since you basically have 130 units against 10. However, that Knight is basically going to 1-shot any of your stacks and your Militia only get 1 shot before having to pass a turn. That's going to feel impossible to a newbie, despite it being a tough but winnable fight.

Even something less extreme, say you are fighting a stack of Dreaths, They get to hit you first before you hit them, which will likely kill some of your units; lowering your damage output. They have fairly high HP compared to damage of Militia/Minstrels ... so again, something that could easily feel impossible to a newbie despite being a "not easy" fight.

I mean, you are awfully quick to jump to "major design flaws" when you didn't even elaborate what you had or what you fought. It could simply be a skill issue since you are a newbie or you could have fought something 1-2 tiers higher than your units .... or the battle indicator could be a misleading d-bag.
Last edited by Morphic; Aug 28, 2022 @ 6:43pm
Toni 'Bō' Jones Aug 29, 2022 @ 1:01am 
Originally posted by EnStorEn:
No, because in most games "medium" doesn't randomly mean an undefeatable army that wipes you out without losses.

You should understand that threat level is rather approximate prediction of the outcome. Game takes your skill level/base knowledge/critical thinking out of this equation, so the actual battle result can differ, greatly, because your skill and knowledge are very important. You can't just rely on numbers and play 'whatever'. I mean, it would be nice to have an AI being capable to give us something along the line: *Human, I've calculated your skill level, based on your turns quality and measured your decision making ability, mixing it with troops you have, so your chances of winning this battle would be 77%.*
But, unfortunately, we ain't there yet, technology wise.

There are people, who don't have much troubles beating AI on Worthy/Challenging and even managed to win Suicidal battles, and it's mostly because of the level of their skills, understanding the mechanics of the game, plus occasional luck (or poor AI, cos sometimes it makes really dumb moves during the battle). It is as simple as that.
Besides, medium doesn't exactly guarantee you 100% victory - it tells you it is possible to win, but also - to lose.

I will say it again - if you will keep practicing, rather than blaming the game for your defeats, I can guarantee you will come to steam again, soon, and tell us how easy AI is and that you want harder difficulty.

I was in your shoes, I get it. One time I restarted one battle (reloaded save) three times, and it was EASY threat - and I've lost all three times in a row. I was frustrated, blamed the map, the AI, etc. We do that when we are angry, it's okay. I kept on playing tho, and instead of sticking to one faction I loved (Loth) I started playing with all of them. It actually can make all the difference - one thing is to know what unit can do, and another one is to actually play with it. To see how different wielders play, what abilities you can use, different magic, how units synergy with each other and how can they benefit from working together. You won't get that from just 'knowing' and that's what I meant in my early post, by saying you will 'feel' the game better. Some units are weak on paper, but then you play them yourself, with different stats and updates, and it's a completely different story. Try playing for faction you struggle playing against - see its strength and then use it to your advantage.

Also, yes, the example of that medium unbeatable enemy you keep mentioning, would be nice.
Last edited by Toni 'Bō' Jones; Aug 29, 2022 @ 1:02am
EnStorEn Aug 29, 2022 @ 7:21am 
The point













Your heads

I see there is no point in continuing this discussion, because you are apparently unable to understand why an battle diff indicator is supposed to do just that, indicate difficulty. That is its whole purpose, yet all your arguments are that "lol no the indicator should not actually indicate anything because your skill is what matters."
If a medium fight requires perfect play to win, then the indicator is trash, period. It FACTUALLY not fulfilling its design purpose. But I can tell this game will never grow into something better than a meddling HoMM3 copy since you people defend something that is clearly not working.
Toni 'Bō' Jones Aug 29, 2022 @ 7:31am 
I can tell that this topic will never grow into more meaningful and problem-solving thread since you refuse to give us details of your 'unbeatable' medium fight, which let's be honest, would help all of us to be more specific from the beginning, rather than dancing around your skill level, because we don't have any other information to work with.

Your basic argument, speaking in your language, 'oh, lol, AI beat me on medium easily, and should have stated it more clearly. Game is bad.'
Last edited by Toni 'Bō' Jones; Aug 29, 2022 @ 7:33am
Morphic Aug 29, 2022 @ 6:20pm 
Originally posted by Toni 'Bō' Jones:
I can tell that this topic will never grow into more meaningful and problem-solving thread since you refuse to give us details of your 'unbeatable' medium fight, which let's be honest, would help all of us to be more specific from the beginning, rather than dancing around your skill level, because we don't have any other information to work with.

Your basic argument, speaking in your language, 'oh, lol, AI beat me on medium easily, and should have stated it more clearly. Game is bad.'

I agree. It's really unfortunate. Perhaps OP is still frustrated strategy/tactics they employed in HoMM3 are not translating well in Songs of Conquest? I had a bit of similar issue since I got so used to spells being dependent on the Hero, instead of the units/essence. I would get ticked off when enemy wielders could throw out spells that I couldn't due to unit essence differences. (Like Rana vs Arleon)

I mean, I didn't even mention skill except for a single sentence on the tail end ... That's how important context of what his army was versus what the enemy army was. Skill is certainly a factor but 8 Stacks of Militia against two stacks of Elder Dragons is going to be "Medium" despite it being a really tough fight lol.
Cress Aug 30, 2022 @ 5:39pm 
I would be interested in seeing the exact fight where "1 stack wipes out your entire army" if you still have it available. Not saying you are misplaying or whatever, but sometimes a simple tactic/spell can turn any fight into easy mode (or very hard if the enemy is a spellcaster, as the case may be). Either way, I would be interested in seeing if maybe we can offer some advice on the specific fight?
Star Paladin Aug 31, 2022 @ 12:31pm 
I guess the Devs need to add "(for a competent player)" after every difficulty indicator. ;)
Last edited by Star Paladin; Aug 31, 2022 @ 12:32pm
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Date Posted: Aug 27, 2022 @ 12:27pm
Posts: 35