Songs of Conquest

Songs of Conquest

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halfwit72 May 18, 2022 @ 12:59am
"Wait"-button in combat
It would be nice to be able to "wait" with a unit in combat.. as in HOMM3 for example. In some combats it would make a world of difference on the outcome.
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Showing 1-15 of 19 comments
Reddz May 18, 2022 @ 1:48am 
Originally posted by halfwit72:
In some combats it would make a world of difference on the outcome.

Which is probably why every unit can't do that. It would make fights a lot easier. Only certain units have the ability to wait until the end of the round. It's treated like a powerful special ability, because it is.
Chixdiggit May 18, 2022 @ 5:35am 
Originally posted by Reddz:
Only certain units have the ability to wait until the end of the round. It's treated like a powerful special ability, because it is.
This is a much better way IMO. Devs made the right call on this.
madracc00n May 18, 2022 @ 6:22am 
Wait on every units is boring,u just wait untill enemy is exposed then u attack.Makes battles longer and wait most of the time is no brain spam.
Tordah May 18, 2022 @ 12:38pm 
Wait function?
Hi.

It doesn't seem like there is a "wait" option in the game during battle.

In HoMM3, the wait option exists for players to choose for their creature stack to be last to play. The first creature to wait plays last. The second creature to wait plays second-to-last and so on.

Why is this option important? Because otherwise faster creatures by playing first may not be capable of positioning themselves at an advantage. Initiative is supposed to be an advantage and should not have severe drawbacks.

In SoC, unless i am wrong and didn't find the wait function, faster melee creatures are at a disadvantage against slow rangers. It's very hard to close the gap for a melee creature to a ranged one (that is, because you start with no Mana, there is no 'haste' like spell available for starting creatures). If you do not close the gap, you end up in deadly range and you're screwed.

The tactical advantages of waiting in a turn is super important.

Actually in HoMM3 you're always trying to have the fastest stack on board to get first spell, and if that creature waits, because it will play LAST on the turn and FIRST on the next turn it'll pay twice. This tactic is super important to the gameplay, because it permits an offensive melee player to close the gap in between his melee creatures and an enemy playing turtle with rangers.

If you're always forced to move or skip your turn it'll create a setback for this game to be truly competitive because there is no way initiatives proves to be always beneficial. It will become advantageous to play second, which is against the design because your hero tend to get initiative as they level up.
halfwit72 May 18, 2022 @ 12:42pm 
Originally posted by madrac00n:
Wait on every units is boring,u just wait untill enemy is exposed then u attack.Makes battles longer and wait most of the time is no brain spam.
Used right it's the difference between winning and losing some battle since it adds another layer strategy wise. When playing strategy games, longer battles are not a bad thing. If you want to play "quick" go play a FPS or something.
It would go against the initiative mechanics, you would play cat and mouse in pvp and it would be a little weird, not everything HOMM3 did is good.

You can use troops that don't waste turns too, like buffs or building structures
Jolly the Joker May 18, 2022 @ 12:49pm 
It doesn't add anything at all except another instrument to screw the AI. The game offers enough ways to increase movement.
Tordah May 18, 2022 @ 12:54pm 
My comment was moved here???

Originally posted by American Dung Beetle:
It would go against the initiative mechanics, you would play cat and mouse in pvp and it would be a little weird, not everything HOMM3 did is good.

You can use troops that don't waste turns too, like buffs or building structures


Well, no not really.

Because waiting can only be done once, you cannot wait again at the end of your turn. When your stack start, it will either play first or last. It's actually giving you the choice of being at the bests positions.

If you get to be second and the first played, then the last spot is available for you to take in the turn.

It's always advantageous.

It will not be a game of cat and mouse; if you get to play first, you are the cat, and the second player is always the mouse. If you cannot close the game on turn 1, you wait turn 1, play last on turn 1, and first on turn 2. You're always the feline and the other player is always the food.

Also it's very hard to point flaws in HoMM3's design. I'm not saying there is no other ways to do tactic games, but it's important that if you try to mimic or carry on the genre you are aware of the underlying systems which made such a game persists for more than 2 decades as the cornerstone of the strategy game community. It's revered, and it is for a reason.
Last edited by Tordah; May 18, 2022 @ 12:58pm
Tordah May 18, 2022 @ 12:57pm 
Originally posted by Jolly the Joker:
It doesn't add anything at all except another instrument to screw the AI. The game offers enough ways to increase movement.

Not exactly. Because you start with no Mana you cannot on turn one just Haste and close the gap. Wait action ensures that your first unit (fastest) can trade being immobile for the whole first turn for a double move (last on turn 1 and first on turn 2)

It's not silly, it's standard. The lower initiative unit should be the one at a disadvantage, otherwise why invest in initiative if slower is better?
DDD May 18, 2022 @ 12:58pm 
This is actually one of the changes I like. The wait function in HOMM3 was lets be honest ripe for defensive or archer abuse (one of the easiest ways to cheese early game mobs and low level ai) giving a large advantage to heroes with better magic or archer units. Songs of conquest changes that by forcing you to either move position or be offensive from the get go by rewarding momentum and spell energy for moves and kills. Wait is actually still in the game but its a special ability for certain high speed units. To allow them to time their movement or gain initiative.

Getting rid of it kills turtling and in terms of positional advantages that's why you have unit placement before every battle. Skipping turns still rewards you with essence for magical casting which you can eventually use for spells.

In terms of closing the gap there are spells like dimension door which can force a slow unit up to 6 hexes. Units that give initiative or lower initiative like pipers and the spider things who's name I cant remember. The current system is one of the actual changes I think improves combat over HOMM.
Sash13 May 18, 2022 @ 1:05pm 
Yea as others said, wait would made the game too easy against AI and slugfest against humans, same with the defend ability. The combat is fast and hits hard, i kinda like it that way.
Munin May 18, 2022 @ 1:27pm 
I don't want to interrupt your discussion, but please make sure to suggest/upvote this on FeatureUpvote. Suggestions on Steam can't really be taken into account.
Jolly the Joker May 18, 2022 @ 1:45pm 
Originally posted by Tordah:
Originally posted by Jolly the Joker:
It doesn't add anything at all except another instrument to screw the AI. The game offers enough ways to increase movement.

Not exactly. Because you start with no Mana you cannot on turn one just Haste and close the gap. Wait action ensures that your first unit (fastest) can trade being immobile for the whole first turn for a double move (last on turn 1 and first on turn 2)

It's not silly, it's standard. The lower initiative unit should be the one at a disadvantage, otherwise why invest in initiative if slower is better?
It's totally silly because the AI can't handle it. Better initiative is always advantaged. And HoMM 3 has a ton of flaws. In the case of this game, "waiting" will also give you "spell points" - if you wait with all your units you have all magical energies without actually having moved a troop.

The way it is it's good. If there WAS a wait command it should be "optional", not mandatory. As I understood it, the devs have a firm position here against waiting, luckily.
Star Paladin May 18, 2022 @ 3:31pm 
Getting +10% defense bonus if you wait/pass (without moving), or something along those lines, would be great.
Jamers May 18, 2022 @ 4:08pm 
Originally posted by halfwit72:
It would be nice to be able to "wait" with a unit in combat.. as in HOMM3 for example. In some combats it would make a world of difference on the outcome.
I think this is exactly why they did away with it. Only certain units have this advantage, and combat becomes much less boring without the "wait and catch" advantage that the Wait command provided in HoMM.

This is a crucial improvement that SoC has given us.
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Date Posted: May 18, 2022 @ 12:59am
Posts: 19