Are the Slavs in "Imperator: Rome?"

[rakovsky]

The Aestian Culture in the game runs from western Latvia and Riga in the north to Warsaw (Kunegria/Korotan in the game) and Brest ("Ossioia Orientalis" in the game) in the south. The game labels it the only member of the "Veneti cultural group." Paradox Wiki labels the Veneti culture group as "Baltic," and gives the Aestians/Veneti 4 countrkes: Galindia, Venedia, Sudinoia, and Saloia.

Academics typically consider ancient Slavic and Baltic languages to have formed a single language group that eventually split into the two sets of languages before the start of Imperator Rome's timeline, such as in 1400 BC.

The Agathyrsian culture in the game runs between Brest (Belarus) in the northwest, the north side of the Dniester River (The Tyras river in the game, western Ukraine), and Uman ("Vyrketin" in the game, central Ukraine). The game says that it's part of the Scythian culture group. There are no countries or kingdoms in the Agarthyrsian culture's lands and they are sparsely populated. The game gives the Scythian culture group "Persian Traditions." Other cultures in the Scythian culture group are the Scythians, Maeotians, and Sarmatians.

The city of Tanais in the game is in the kingdom of Scythia and has the Scythian culture. It is on the Tanais River (Don River) running east from the Sea of Azov. There is a theory that Slavs, such as Croats, lived in ancient Tanais.

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Wikipedia suggests that the Aestians are Baltic (eg. Lithuanian, Latvian), or maybe Estonian:
Tacitus wrote that the Aesti collected amber that they called "glaesum". Wikipedia notes that this word "resembles the Estonian equivalent klaas and the later Latvian equivalent: glīsis or glēsa. The word is quoted of being of Germanic origin, given its similarity to the Gothic word glas... Tacitus, however, describes the language of Aestii as closer to that spoken in Britain than that spoken by other neighbouring tribes. ... The Old Prussian and modern Lithuanian names for the Vistula Lagoon, Aīstinmari and Aistmarės, respectively, appear to derive from Aesti and mari ("lagoon" or "fresh-water bay"), which suggests that the area around the lagoon had links with the Aesti. Another origin could be that of Summer sea, which in Latin translates as Aesti mari."

Wikipedia notes that there is" phonological similarity between Aestii and the modern day Estonia (Eesti)," but that "The etymologies of Aesti and Eesti remain subjects of scholarly conjecture... Also, as Cassiodorus famously writes, the amber is gathered in the innermost islands of the ocean and of the Baltic nations of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, only Estonia has open sea islands (around 2300)."

Wikipedia notes that the center for the ancient Baltic amber trade was the Sambian peninsula, the current-day Kaliningrad region.
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Wikipedia's information implies that the Venedi were Slavic, a mix of Balts and Slavs, or a pre-Slavic non-Germanic Italo-Celtic-type people:
Wikipedia's article on the Vistula Veneti / Venedi says that the Veneti were based in the area around the Bay of Gdansk and the region east of the Vistula river. This sounds like the south half of the area that Imperator Rome gives to the "Aestia" culture. Tacitus in the 1st century AD seemed to locate them between the Germanic-speaking Peucini/Bastarnae and the Fenni, maybe meaning Finns?:
"I do not know whether to class the tribes of the Peucini, Venedi, and Fenni with the Germans or with the Sarmatians. The Peucini, however, who are sometimes called Bastarnae, are like Germans in their language, manner of life, and mode of settlement and habitation. ... The Veneti have borrowed largely from Sarmatian ways; their plundering forays take them all over the wooded and mountainous country that rises between the Peucini and the Fenni... Nevertheless, they are to be classed as Germani, for they have settled houses..."

The 6th century AD Byzantine author Jordanes wrote that the Venedi were the ancestors of the Sclaveni (Slavs). The 3rd-4th century Roman road map, the Tabula Peutingeriana, puts the "Venedi" on the north bank of the Danube upstream from its mouth in eastern Romania. This map also shows the "Venadi Sarmatae" (Sarmatian Venedi) on the Baltic coast.

Wikipedia gives further circumstantial evidence for equating the Venedi with the Slavs, in that their late 4th century non-Slavic neighbors called Slavs "Venedi": "It is also clear that the Franks in later centuries (see, e.g., [Late 4th century] Life of Saint Martinus, Fredegar's Chronicle, [6th century] Gregory of Tours), Lombards (see, e.g., Paul the Deacon), and Anglo-Saxons (see Widsith's Song) referred to Slavs both in the Elbe-Saal region and in Pomerania generally, as Wenden or Winden, which was a later corruption of the word Veneti. Likewise, the Franks and Bavarians of Styria and Carinthia referred to their Slavic neighbours as Windische."

In modern FInnish languages, the word for "Russia" is similar to the Venedi and Wends: (Finnish Venäjä, Estonian: Vene [ˈve.ne], Karelian: Veneä).

Wikipedia says that archeology in the Venedi's region contains the Iron Age West Baltic Cairns/Barrow Culture, and the Przeworsk and Zarubintsy cultures east of the Vistula river. It associates the West Baltic Cairns Culture with the Balts (eg. Lithuanians), the Przeworsk culture with the Germanic Vandals and the Slavs, and the Zarubintsy culture with the Slavs. Scholars theorize that Slavic culture originated between the upper Dnieper river in Ukraine and the southern Bug river in western Belarus, which overlaps with the Zarubintsky culture.

Wikipedia notes that water names in the Vistula and Oder basin resemble the Italic-Celtic branch of the Indo-Europeans, similar to names in the region of the "Adriatic Veneti" (ie. the region of Venice and the Venetians), and mentions a theory that the Veneti were a non-Slavic, non-Germanic people resembling the Italic-Celtic culture.

Wikipedia's article on the Wends notes that in the 1st millenium AD, Western Slavs moved into the Elbe and Oder river region. "Their German neighbours adapted the term they had been using for peoples east of the River Elbe before to the Slavs, calling them Wends as they called the Venedi before and probably the Vandals also."

The History Files website theorizes that the original "Veneti" were a pre-Slavic group like the Celts who migrated from central Europea to Brittany in northern France:
"In this view the Veneti migration probably took place around 1000 BC, during the Urnfield period. This places it in a similar timeframe to the earliest Celtic outwards migrations from their core homeland between Switzerland and Bavaria, mostly to Britain and Iberia, from about 1200 BC." This theory would place these original "Veneti" in Central Europe long before the events of Imperator Rome, so that they were different from the "Veneti" of Poland in Imperator: Rome.

The website's article "Veneti / Venedi (Belgae)" theorizes that the word "Veneti" means white or "blonde." By comparison, the major concentration of blonds in Europe runs from western Russia to eastern UK, with the highest being in central Scandinavia. But I've seen other etymologies suggested for the word "Veneti" instead. By comparison, "Venetus" in Latin means Blue-Green.

The Slovenian website's article, "Etruscans, Veneti and Slovenians," that asserts a genetic connection between the ancient Venetians living in the Adriatic area of Slovenia and the Slavic Slovenians living there today. The article concludes:
"There is a genetic continuity between the ancient Etruscans and Veneti and the present day Slovenians. Genetic information makes it evident, that Slovenians are indigenous to their land as indicated by the mtDNA relationship with the 2,500 year old skeletal remains of the Etruscans, particularly those from Adria in Veneto.
"Genetic information supports the historic quotation from the biography of St. Columban written in 615 A.D. and cited by Toma`i~ “Termini Venetiorum qui et Sclavi dicuntur”—the land of the Veneti who are also called Slavs ([avli 1996)."

The identity of the ancient "Venetians" and their relationship to the Slavs is perhaps hidden in part because today, there is no major pre-Latin Italo-Celtic-type speaking people in the region between Venice and Belarus. However, it's commonly thought in Academia that at one time, the Celts did live on a major swathe of land from southern Germany to central Turkey (like the province of Galatia). Further, in history it's often happened that a tribe could have the same ethnicity or language as their rulers or their neighbors, or a different one, regardless of whether the name was the same. Hypothetically, the "Veneti" of the Vistula could be bear the same name as an Italo-Celtic kingdom, while also carrying a Slavic DNA or language. Another tricky factor is how much arrogant German Nationalist ideology has severely tarnished serious ethnic and genetic scholarship.

If one wishes to connect the R1A DNA Haplogroup to the Slavs, then it's notable that R1A is found highly in Russia, Poland, the Baltic countries, and only to a lesser extent to Slovenia, Serbia, and Bulgaria. One could theorize that Slavic people moved into these three latter regions and spread their language there, but that the majority of these 3 regions' people have more of a genetic code (like an Italo-Celtic one) that we don't associate with the Slavs. On the other hand, R1A DNA can be well connected to a swathe of Corded Ware Culture in 2500 BC ranging from Germany and south Scandinavia in the west, east to Russia, as this map shows:
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/MapsOfNeolithicAndBronzeAgeMigrationsEuropeAndNearEast-Eupedia.htm

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Wikipedia says that the Agathyrsi "were a people of mixed Iranian Scythic and Geto-Thracian origin whose bulk were Thracian while their aristocracy was closely related to the Scythians." It says that they lived around the sources of the Maris (Mureș) river in what is today central Romania, and around what is today Moldova. Wikipedia mentions that in Scythian mythology, "Agathyrsus was the eldest of the three ancestors of the Scythian peoples born of the union of the god Targitaos and the Anguipede Goddess... it is... likely that the original homeland of the Agathyrsi was in the region of the Sea of Azov. In the 8th to 7th centuries BC, the migration of the Scythians proper from the east into the Pontic Steppe pushed the Agathyrsi westwards, away from the steppes". Wikipedia notes that "they practised the same customs as the Thracians, although the names of their kings, such as Agathyrsus and Spargapeithes, were Iranian.[2][3] Thracian customs of the Agathyrsi included their nobles practice of tattooing themselves and dyeing their hair dark blue to distinguish themselves from the common people".

The Geto-Thracians would have been a mix of Getae and Thracian peoples. The Getae were a Dacian people and were based in Romania. The ancient Thracians were a non-Greek people who spoke a "Satem", ie. eastern Indo-European language (such as Baltic, Slavic, and Iranian.) The Thracians were based in Thrace, in what is now European Turkey.

The "Romanian History and Culture" blog notes that "Herodotus recorded the Pontic Greek myth that the Agathyrsi were named after a legendary ancestor Agathyrsus, an oldest son of Hercules and the monster Echidna (Herod. 4. 8-10). They tattooed their bodies, degrees of rank being indicated by the manner in which this was done, and colored their hair dark blue."

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Wikipedia gives several hypotheses about the origin of the Croats. In one of these theories, the Croats have an Iranian origin and were related to the Sarmatians.

An article on "Croat Identity" asserts: "Hrvat is a word of Sarmatian (Persian) origins. ... The Tanais Tablets mention three men: Horoúathos, Horoáthos, and Horóathos (Χορούαθ[ος], Χοροάθος, Χορόαθος). They are written in Greek and are from the 3rd century AD from the city of Tanais, today's Azov, Russia. At that time the region had mainly a mix of Greek - Sarmatian population."

Wikipedia's article on the Tanais Tablets notes:
"Tanais Tablet B mentions Horoathos as the son of (or from) Sandarz who was (or had been) the archon of the Tanaisians (one of theory Sandakšatru gens), which is a Scytho-Sarmatian name. Scholars use this to indicate that early Croatians may have, at the time, been Sarmatians or a mixed tribe of Alans and Crimean Goths who became Slavicized in the ensuing centuries." Tablet A also mentions Horoathos.

[JoJo]

Good God, why would you write this effort post and make Wikipedia your primary source.

[Jiggy]

Since you seem to be a history enthusiast, you may consider referring some dependable sites below: Wikipedia, in my opinion, is not that accurate and sometimes puts in opinions and forward looking statements by people as facts.

World History Foundation: (Do consider donating some small sum, if you love it)
https://www.worldhistory.org/

Encyclopedia Brittanica
https://www.britannica.com/

P.S. @rakovsky: I have a considerable part of my life in academics and very occassionaly I do come across passionate people like you. Lots of respect, keep it on!

[rakovsky]

Thanks for suggesting Encyclopedia Britannica. It says that the pre-Latin Adriatic Veneti (as in Venice) controlled the ancient amber trade to the Baltic. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Veneti-Italian-people
There is evidence that the ambar trade went back to the era of Troy in the 2nd millenium BC. In this theory, perhaps some "Veneti" related to the Adriatic Veneti had colonies or some kind of control over central Poland in an ancient era well before the setting of Imperator Rome.

The Britannica article on the Wends says that they are also called Sorbs, and that they denote "any member of a group of Slavic tribes that had settled in the area between the Oder River (on the east) and the Elbe and Saale rivers (on the west) by the 5th century AD, in what is now eastern Germany." I also read a theory that the term Sorb for Slavs is related to the term Serb.

[[__h.stickeye_]]

ok, but whats your thesis?

[rakovsky]

Stickeye,
My main thesis is that the term "Venedi" when applied to ancient Poland included a large base of Slavic people.

The Venetians of north Italy had an ancient amber trade that ran frrom the area of Venice up to the mouth of the Vistula (Bay of Gdansk). This was in the era before Imperator Rome's beginning. Ancient Greeks, Latins, and Germans used this term "Veneti"/"Venedi" to apply to tribes across this expanse. These tribes included Italic people like in the Venice area, or more broadly Italic, Etruscan, Celtic, Baltic, and/or Slavic people. They included Baltic or Slavic people because this range of tribes included the 12th-4th century BC Lausitzer Culture that spread from East Germany to Ukraine. Remains from a Lausitzer settlement in east Germany showed R1A DNA associated with the Balts and Slavs, and Balts and Slavs both lived in the area by the Bay of Gdansk in medieval times. The population of Poland today is considered basically Slavic and has about 60% R1A DNA.

You can see a map of the ancient Venetian Amber trade here:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/Baltis_amber_road.jpg/440px-Baltis_amber_road.jpg

The Venedi range in the 1st century extended from the Bay of Gdansk to the Carpathians and into West Ukraine, so their territory certainly included much more people than just the Balts, and this territory overlaps with the ancient Slavic homeland. Further, the Przeworsk culture of the ancient period and the Zarubintsy culture are associated with the Slavs and are included in the Venedian territory. Further, West Europeans and Byzantines of the 4th-6th century in their writings considered the Slavs to be the descendants of the Venedi.

[[__h.stickeye_]]

Interesting. Are you just making an observation on the game?

[rakovsky]

Yes. Plus, I have been trying to work my way through figuring out whether the game includes the Slavs among the other interesting ancient playable cultures somehow. The game designers seem to portray the Venedi as Baltic (eg. Lithuanian) though, rather than Slavic.

[Myll]

On a practical note related to what we do have in-game in the Baltic region, I recommend starting as Saloia in northeastern Europe on the map, which is Aestian culture and Matrist religion.
There are gameplay reasons to prefer a start with Saloia to consider, just in case you've never started a game in this tribal area.
- Formable is "Aestuia" which relates to your OP Discussion here in the thread, for thematic play through. It doesn't take long to get to the formable level either, it's quite fast if you stomp over your tribal neighbors early enough.
- You start with Rural Tradition and the nerf is the best of the nerfs to have for traditions long term, because the -4% National Tribesmen Happiness has ZERO consequences after you progress away from MIgratory and Settled Tribe later in game (Tribesmen become a detriment, not a help, once Civilization level increases, so a nerf to them is a buff considering how quickly they want to promote/demote etc.).
- You start with the military shrine for a Matrist god, game-long buffs for the capitol province from game start.
- Just west is settlement of Venedicana that has the other Military Matrist god's shrine, in the first tribe to conquer and take land from (easy take-down if you start alliances with 1-2 other tribes further west from day 1 of the game. So after a take-down of this competing tribe, you now have 2x shrines buffing for you.
- It's a Migratory Tribe game start, which in itself is a good change of game conditions compared to playing monarchies and republics around Rome.
- Look north of Saloia's game start province, as that is the unsettled province of Turuntia. Now I won't give away all the spoilers of the special Mission tasks to settle here, but it means you have a nearly complete unsettled province on your border that you can migrate settle into after conquering your close Aestian neighbors.
- Look south of Saloia's game start, aside from the easy task of taking over your tribal neighbor to then hold your entire starting Province, just look at all those Settlements you can take over (lots of gameplay fun migrating/sprawling into there).
- Significant religious consideration: once you conquer all your fellow Matrist religion tribes (and there's only a few until you stumble into Tuistic religion tribes further west), you are "it." That's it for the Matrist religion, as you're in charge of the entire religion's future. This matters because there are no other shrines/temples built up for your gods, other than the 2 Military shrines already established as prior mentioned. So you have ZERO competition to build your religion's shrines (and expand to temples) as you expand your kingdom later. I can't recommend a Monarchy or Republic as a better progression, but I would highly suggest consistently Converting all your Pops to Matrist and not negotiating secondary cultures for most if not all the game (you get so many Pops from all the migratory settling, conquering, and growth, that you can keep a >50% dominance for culture and religion through the entire play-through).
- I also like building a small navy soon as I have coastal territory/port, as I like taking unsettled Gotland (settlement of Vineta in game) and in case you aren't aware, just this one island (and isolated) settlement results in a new Levy of 2k troops to wield in a war (simply transport by boat back to mainland for each war). Give that little island a couple upgrades to import supplies and if lucky with Iron, you may get some bonus heavy infantry. So your positioning gives you this nice, protected, isolated army source to further your expansion on the mainland. You can choose to expand into Vineta's province of Herulia, and take that entire Scandinavian region, although getting into that grind can delay goals around your capital to expand into unsettled territory
- Note the "Wall of UNcivilization" to the east. That's a double-bonus for random free Pops creeping out as Barbarians who will siege-settle a Pop, but also ensures you have no competing tribes/kingdoms that can flank your territories along that wall of Eurasia. It's a great position to be in for a full play through.
- A negative, you'll notice that you get nerfs to food production because it's a cold region.
- A hint for Turuntia, always read the full list of buffing options as you settle Turuntia and get "blessed by the gods" because the increase in production of the local Trade Good is always the choice to pick, as you get the extreme boost of 2x settlements each getting +1 Trade Good. And guess what? It can fire again (and again?) and you pick the same thing. Before you know it, you're producing +5 or more of a Trade Good with a City on top.

Enjoy.

[rakovsky]

Nice tips.

[Inquerion]

Originally posted by Jiggy:

Since you seem to be a history enthusiast, you may consider referring some dependable sites below: Wikipedia, in my opinion, is not that accurate and sometimes puts in opinions and forward looking statements by people as facts.

World History Foundation: (Do consider donating some small sum, if you love it)
https://www.worldhistory.org/

Encyclopedia Brittanica
https://www.britannica.com/

P.S. @rakovsky: I have a considerable part of my life in academics and very occassionaly I do come across passionate people like you. Lots of respect, keep it on!

Wikipedia is not a reliable source of infromation. It's good enough to get you interested in the topic and basics of it (and some articles are written very well), but to do proper research you need to read academic papers and books and most importantly, historcial sources, like texts written by Roman/Greek writers (preferably in original language like Latin/Greek). That's why during historical studies you learn at least basics of these languages.

Of course, we will never fully know "how everything was back there" but it's a good start ;)

Nice to see some people passionate about history and with academic background over here.

Fortunately common stereotype that all games are just mindless clickers and waste of time is slowly dying.

[rakovsky]

Inquerion,

The 6th c. Byzantine writer Jordanes' book, "Getica" is online with the Latin placed next to the English here:
https://www.harbornet.com/folks/theedrich/Goths/Goths1.htm

In Part 1, Chapter 4, Jordanes describes the Goths conquering the "Spalorum"/"Spali" by the Scythian region of "Aujom" by the Pontic sea.

In search of suitable homes and pleasant places they reached the lands of Scythia, which in their tongue are called “Aujom”
{Editor's Note: Aujom is Gothic for “in the waterlands”}.
...
Nec mora : ilico ad gentem Spalorum adveniunt, consertoque prœlio, victoriam adipiscuntur...

There they quickly came upon the race of the Spali, joined battle with them and won the victory. Thence the victors hastened to the farthest part of Scythia, which is near the sea of Pontus; for so the story is generally told in their early songs, in almost historic fashion.

Note: "Ispolini" is the modern Russian word for "giants", as the modern Synodal translation of the Bible uses for the Nephilim. I haven't been able to confirm that "Spali" means the same as giants, and didn't find the primary source for where the 6th century Byzantine writer Procopius says that the "Sporoi" were Slavs.

In Chapter 23, Jordanes writes about the 3rd-4th century Gothic ruler Ermanaric's conquest of the "Wenethi" (Veneti / Winiþos in English). Jordanes explains that the Veneti now are also called Sclaveni.

Nam hi, ut in initio expositionis vel catalogo gentium dicere cœpimus, ex una stirpe exorti, tria nunc nomina ediderunt, id est « Wenethi », « Antes », « Sclaveni »
...
After the slaughter of the Eruli, this same Ermanaric took arms against the Winiþos. This people, though despised in war, was strong in numbers and at first tried to resist him. But a mass of pacifists is of no avail, particularly when God permits an armed multitude to attack them. These people — as we started to say at the beginning of our account or catalogue of nations — though offshoots from one stock, have now three names, that is, “Winiþos,” “Antes” and “Sclaveni”. Though they now rage in war far and wide, in punishment for our sins, yet at that time they all submitted to Aírmana-reik’s commands.

Here is the Latin text section, followed by the Latin and English side by side, for where Tacitus in the 2nd century describes the Venedi:
https://www.thelatinlibrary.com/tacitus/tac.ger.shtml#46

Here is the Latin-English text:

[Τάκιτος, Γερμανία, 46] Hic Suebiae finis. Peucinorum Venedorumque et Fennorum nationes Germanis an Sarmatis adscribam dubito...

As to the tribes of the Peucini, Veneti, and Fenni I am in doubt whether I should class them with the Germans or the Sarmatae, although indeed the Peucini called by some Bastarnae, are like Germans in their language, mode of life, and in the permanence of their settlements. They all live in filth and sloth, and by the intermarriages of the chiefs they are becoming in some degree debased into a resemblance to the Sarmatae. The Veneti have borrowed largely from the Sarmatian character; in their plundering expeditions they roam over the whole extent of forest and mountain between the Peucini and Fenni. They are however to be rather referred to the German race, for they have fixed habitations carry shields, and delight in strength and fleetness of foot, thus presenting a complete contrast to the Sarmatae, who live in waggons and on horseback.

Source:
https://smerdaleos.wordpress.com/2022/11/15/%CF%84%CE%BF-%CF%87%CF%81%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%8C-%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BD-%CF%83%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%B2%CF%89%CE%BD-%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%85-%CF%87%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%BC%CF%8C%CE%BB%CE%B4%CE%BF%CF%85-2/

[[__h.stickeye_]]

I highly suggest you put all your research into a word document, not on this forum!

[sammwich]

Been a long while since I read about this academically, but my recollection is this is simply too early to try to distinguish Baltic and Slavic. There is an uncertain area of an originating culture that later diverged into Baltic and Slavic. There are certainly arbitrary divisions on the map, some of which would have been based on gameplay considerations rather than history. Given how little we really know about the people in this area at this time period, just about any final delineation is going to be inaccurate to an extent. Even whether Balts and Slavs have a common origin is a matter of speculation, albeit likely correct speculation.

[[__h.stickeye_]]

Although I find this all very interesting, what can be learnt from this Blatic/Slavic dissertation?

[Jiggy]

Originally posted by Inquerion:

Fortunately common stereotype that all games are just mindless clickers and waste of time is slowly dying.

You are correct. A lot depends on the kind of players the developers wish to attract to their games.
Grand Strategy games & 4X usually attract players looking for some depth (in terms of content, history, simulation etc.) rather than fancy action.
At least, that was the kind of players I experienced when playing Travian & Civilization IV & V years back.
Now, honestly I am not sure whether it is the same.
Plus majority of the games being offered in campuses for competition or fun are arcade or action, maybe puzzles in some cases.
I am very impressed with the gaming community I found here at Imperator: Rome board.