The Most Complex?

[Dillinius Sandar]

So far i've played HOI IV, Stellaris and crusader kings 3. Each of them were overwhelming to a degree when I first played them but so far I don't think any of them compare to the barrage of a UI that Imperator is. I've started the game up multiple times just to take another look at everything and every time I leave without playing and questioning how long it would take to even grasp it. Is this a common thing for Imperator or have I just not touched other crazy Paradox games yet?

As i've said i've played the games I listed and while daunting at first, i got the hang of them pretty quickly but i've never not worked up the nerve to even jump into like I haven't with Imperator. And mind you I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, I think once you do get the hang of a very complex game, it's that much more rewarding. Do you guys feel the same, especially in relation to other Paradox games?

[Hagemann]

I wouldnt say its more complex than other paradox games. The character aspect of the game is very surface level and almost everything is explained in their popup tooltips. The population system took me a while to understand but thats it.

[markeason]

I cannot speak to other titles as Imperator is my first serious foray into a Paradox game.

I expected a step up in complexity compared to the Total War games that had occupied my time the last couple of years, but I didn't expect this.

The first 200 hours of game time were mostly logged with the game on pause while I trawled the net for information on the myriad game mechanics and their interactions. A large problem I found was that much of the information related to earlier versions and mechanics that had subsequently evolved, or even been replaced. Truth be told, I got so frustrated I almost gave up, as I couldn't see the reward from the game ever repaying the time investment to learn to play it.

Thankfully I persevered.

After countless hours reading through the games's Wiki pages, the Dev Diaries and watching both game-play and tutorial videos by a variety of content providers, and with 300 hours clocked, I am still learning to play the game but am at last able to hold my own in a campaign - I choose to play a random small kingdom (Colchis) rather than one of the recommended big factions.

After many false starts, I am on the cusp of developing into a Major Power, yet am only now realising the problems I am about to experience because I didn't pay attention to securing my lineage - no male off-spring and daughter married off to Thrace (IIRC).

I doubt I will ever be good at this game, but it has and hopefully will continue to provide a rewarding challenge for many hours to come.

[Dillinius Sandar]

@markeason That's pretty much how I am feeling the game will end up for me and I think it's a good thing its very hard and it doesn't hold your hand to success. It's just so daunting from the amount of menus you have to go through, from army panels to laws, diplomacy, religion, economy. It's definitely very different than the paradox games I mentioned I played, the closest would be Crusader Kings 3 and its much more beginner friendly than this and less complex. Just armies themselves are crazy complex, you can use them to build roads, pillage, colonize new lands and settle down on conquered lands, there's army loyalty towards generals, there's an actual body count for your armies involving pops, you have to configure your armies front lines and flanks.

I love games in this time period, i've played a crap ton of Rome 2, and i'm hoping this'll give that extra bit of feeling of empire building and diplomacy that total war lacks.

[markeason]

Originally posted by Dillinius Sandarius:

@markeason That's pretty much how I am feeling the game will end up for me and I think it's a good thing its very hard and it doesn't hold your hand to success. It's just so daunting from the amount of menus you have to go through, from army panels to laws, diplomacy, religion, economy. It's definitely very different than the paradox games I mentioned I played, the closest would be Crusader Kings 3 and its much more beginner friendly than this and less complex. Just armies themselves are crazy complex, you can use them to build roads, pillage, colonize new lands and settle down on conquered lands, there's army loyalty towards generals, there's an actual body count for your armies involving pops, you have to configure your armies front lines and flanks.

I love games in this time period, i've played a crap ton of Rome 2, and i'm hoping this'll give that extra bit of feeling of empire building and diplomacy that total war lacks.

That was pretty much the reason I came here, though I was playing Shogun rather than Rome TW.

The level of complexity here is in a totally different league.

I watched countless videos on game mechanics but I really couldn't take it in (I probably should have taken notes).

When I tried to play the game, something would happen and I would track back through layers of tool tips to discover a metric that I'd never heard of and so you have to track that down somewhere to find out what affected that value and figure what (if anything) could be done about it. Eventually realising that I should not have got into that position in the first place.

Because of everything the game throws at you, it is very hard to keep track of everything.
For example, monitoring character loyalty goes out of the window during a hot war. So you breathe a sigh of relief when you scrape through the war and disband your levies, only to find a major character is now at rock bottom loyalty and about to start a civil war.

The best advice I can offer, is start with a monarchy rather than a republic. It's hard enough managing the characters without having to cope with the senate as well. Don't play on ironman to start with. Save frequently and be prepared to go back and replay and replay as you learn the game. That was how I eventually got my head around the core metrics. That, and watching game-play on youtube - especially if I could find one where the player was dealing with the same situation I had fallen into :)

[Hagemann]

If you have experience with other paradox games, it shouldnt take you more than an hour to figure out this one, spend that hour on a youtube guide. Usually with paradox games, they look more complicated than they are.

[Dillinius Sandar]

Originally posted by Hagemann |5.Geb.Div|:

If you have experience with other paradox games, it shouldnt take you more than an hour to figure out this one, spend that hour on a youtube guide. Usually with paradox games, they look more complicated than they are.

That's also what I was thinking. When I first played HOI IV, I was completely overwhelmed but got the hang quickly. Stellaris was also really overwhelming at first but again I got the hang quickly. I'm hoping this is just the same and I need to just take the leap and play it out.

[Rooter]

The game looks complicated, but it isnt.
Its a ton of clicking, then clicking the same things again, then again, then again..............
The hardest aspect of learning this game is your own patience and sanity, and then you realise you just wasted a lot of time mastering a game that you dont really enjoy playing.

[Damac]

I don't know about more complex but it is a more patient game than most.
You wont usually figure out how bad you screwed up until several game play hours after you made a decision or did a seemingly tiny thing.

[T-Duke76]

Originally posted by Rooter:

The game looks complicated, but it isnt.
Its a ton of clicking, then clicking the same things again, then again, then again..............
The hardest aspect of learning this game is your own patience and sanity, and then you realise you just wasted a lot of time mastering a game that you dont really enjoy playing.

I couldn't disagree more. In my experience (I'm a Paradox "user" since the first EU) Imperator is the most deep, complex , complete and satisfying of their game I've never played.

[Feynrik]

Originally posted by Damac:

I don't know about more complex but it is a more patient game than most.
You wont usually figure out how bad you screwed up until several game play hours after you made a decision or did a seemingly tiny thing.

Or you just can cheat your way into good play several days as savescumming and maximizing the easy stance in settings. I have my games always at very easy, equity women in positions from 1st day and also NOT have any paradox account to save ganefile at local computer harddrive in anothe folder to just redo my latest small mistake.
There are a lot of what you claim as "hidden" long run negative effects down the gametime. But dont think any of my games are any easy as AI counter my playstile rather intelligent have to say.
This game gives me the joy emotions of playing mixed patience, chess and bridge!
And you get the achievements even as you savescum cheating.
But i never trick the income etc with the hacker programm cheatmachine.

[Rooter]

Originally posted by T-Duke76:

Originally posted by Rooter:

The game looks complicated, but it isnt.
Its a ton of clicking, then clicking the same things again, then again, then again..............
The hardest aspect of learning this game is your own patience and sanity, and then you realise you just wasted a lot of time mastering a game that you dont really enjoy playing.

I couldn't disagree more. In my experience (I'm a Paradox "user" since the first EU) Imperator is the most deep, complex , complete and satisfying of their game I've never played.

What are the deepest and most complex parts of IR?
Im really interested to know?

[Dillinius Sandar]

@Rooter You criticise Imperator as if its uniquely a Grand Strategy with a ton of clicking that then gets boring, you realise every paradox game is a ton of clicking. and then clicking the same things. You're criticism seems to be of Paradox games in general.

[Rooter]

Originally posted by Dillinius Sandarius:

@Rooter You criticise Imperator as if its uniquely a Grand Strategy with a ton of clicking that then gets boring, you realise every paradox game is a ton of clicking. and then clicking the same things. You're criticism seems to be of Paradox games in general.

Mate, you asked the question and I gave an honest answer.
I play on ironman and I have most of the rare achievements.
Every one is different.
The game becomes a monstrous click fest, you will see, if you persevere and play the game.

[Dillinius Sandar]

well I would say the other paradox games i've played were click fests as well, with so many menus and such a big UI with this game, maybe you're right that this takes the cake for being the biggest click fest. I guess i'l see when i do a playthrough.

[Rooter]

Large empires become onerous.
The starting country you build up and micro manage is enjoyable.
The micro management doesnt stop.
Then add the AI regurlarly cancelling trade routes, changing every province edict on ruler death.
Followed by the never ending appeasing of characters, get them loyal, another takes their place or an event makes them disloyal.
The complexity is just you figuring out which 1 or maybe 2 choices you have out of many are the only ones you will ever take
You will basically also only build a small selection of the buildings available.
I enjoyed IR and definitely got my moneies worth, but ultimately what you see in the first hour is the entire game.
No one will attack you when you have grown.
Watch the AI change positions on the map with the diadochi cb and you start to realise some poor decisions were made with this game.
They chopped and changed frantically to appease the wrong voices so much I wonder how much effort to fix simple things like tool tips referring to mechanics they removed.