Spartan Mechanics

[Protagoras]

Anything unique about Sparta? I'm thinking about playing them first.

[The Former]

Originally posted by Pastor LuL:

Originally posted by Sheriff of Nothingham:

What are you looking for, exactly? As far as I'm aware, the only historically unique thing about Sparta as compared to other Greek states is that Spartan citizens formed a sort of "lazy upper class" over their helot economic backbone. Not entirely sure how they'd simulate that, short of having a monarchy.

Lazy upper class which trained nonstop for war since the age of 7 and ate pork with blood, vinegar and salt for dinner? If that's what the upper class lives like then I'm happy to be middle class.

Haha! Sound about right, yeah.

Thing is, several classical texts suggest the war training was largely a myth. Mostly, the Agoge placed emphasis on making a good citizen, not a good soldier. Dancing, singing, and political skills were the focus. It wasn't until later, when the Spartans started pushing the myth of Thermopylae, that it started taking on a more rigorous tint; mainly to have something tangible to show the world that they were indeed great warriors, since foreign dignitaries kept sending their children there to learn the famous Spartan warrior way.

This is what I've heard, anyway. Take it with a grain of Carthaginian soil.

[Agesilaus]

Originally posted by Sheriff of Nothingham:

Originally posted by Plato:

Right now it looks like Sparta is totally ahistorical to the point of absurdity. For example, the person playing as Sparta had a decision to make Megalopolis the capital and transform into an Arcadian League. Also, it appears that Sparta is just a regular hellenistic monarchy in terms of government. Also, somehow the Peloponnesos has a significant population of jews in the late 4th century.

Well that's not being unhistorical, is it? That's just giving you options. I mean in this game, Rome could go back to being a kingdom and become close allies with Carthage. Macedonia could conquer Italia and become the greatest naval powerhouse the world has ever known.

The whole point of Paradox games is that they give you the option to do whatever you want with history. The ability to rewrite the past is what's so intriguing about these games.

I do like the option of making ahistorical decisions, but it just seems that Paradox took no care when it came to depicting Sparta. Paradox has turned Sparta into a hellenistic monarchy, and the only decision specific to the Peloponnesos appeared to be moving the capital to Megalopolis and becoming the Arcadian League. In reality, Sparta's goal at the time was to sack Megalopolis and split it into small villages, reconquer Messenia, and reclaim dominance in the Peloponnesos while sending generals and mercenaries around the world - I didn't see any of those things as decisions in this game.

I suspect Paradox will make a DLC. This period saw a number of interesting wars and political changes in Greece/Sparta. Right now, it just looks sloppy.

Originally posted by Richon:

Originally posted by Plato:

Also, somehow the Peloponnesos has a significant population of jews in the late 4th century.

This could be a reference to the kinship that was discussed in a series of letters between the Spartans and the Maccabeans in the 2nd century.

Maybe, but in the let's play the jews were spread throughout the Peloponnesos, not just Sparta. There are even jews in the mountains of 4th century Arcadia. Apparently you can just assimilate/convert them, though, so whatever. Again, I assume things will be fixed in a DLC.

[PuttBlug]

Yeah guys of course Spartans were educated as well as training for war since the age of 7. Nobody suggested they were fools who only knew how to fight and nothing else so that's your mistake for suggesting I might've thought so.

Regarding the Spartan "agoge" : Any male who did not successfully pass through the agoge was denied Spartan citizenship. At various times this selection process was seen as detrimental to Spartan society, particularly when the number of free male Spartan citizens dwindled (oliganthropia). The practice waned in the 3rd century BC but was successfully reinvigorated some time in the 220s BC by Cleomenes III. It was abolished, however, less than forty years later by Philopoemen in 188 BC.[10] The agoge was reinstated in the year 146 BC after the Romans defeated the Achaeans in the Achaean War,[11] albeit in a lesser form than the original.

Excerpt from wikipedia. So Sparta for most of its existence did make it obligatory for its citizens to follow the agoge.

[Darthvegeta800]

A bit of necro'ing but I like the discussion.
When it comes to flavor for Sparta I'd like them to dig into path of Cleomenes III and his cleomenic reforms.
Essentially a mixture of combining the best of old with new.
A few key points of his reform:

1) The power of the King (not kings) was consolidated while the Ephors were abolished. -> perhaps have the King start limited but one step in the reform is essentially improved centralization. (start weakened, but gain as a counterstep a nice loyalty bonus for the king?)

2) The agoge in 'some' type was reinstituted. Doubtful that it would be the brutal archaic version or the evasively documented 'high Sparta' agoge. Most likely you'd end up with a focus on militarization, tradition etc. Perhaps a bonus to morale and discipline? He clearly was aiming for a more ascetic military society though I don't see it turning out a it once did. Perhaps start without an agoge bonus of any kind in Sparta but have the option pop up in a next step to introduce it and with it give a specific bonus?

3) The Pike Phalanx became the mainstay of the Spartan army. Essentially Cleomenes III fielded the bulk of his Spartans as professional decently equippped Phalangites while letting his allies tackle other roles. Essentially a heavy infantry bonus.

4) There were land reforms. (land distribution imbalance was a recurring problem in most systems) And an expansion of the citizenry with Perioikoi. Land distribution / add citizenship could be an interesting early law/action to take with initial stability loss but an impact on Spartan citizenship and the manpower value?

Regardless if Sparta ever gets more indepth attention i'd have them start heavily crippled and in need of reforms then start reforming and build up power. A mixture of the old Spartan traditions and the Hellenistic innovations. Though with a focus remaining on heavy infantry.

Cleomenes III was rather succesful early on establishing regional dominance once more but as is the case for most small states in the game... got slammed down by mighty Macedon. Even had he won, it is unlikely he would have maintained his hold.

But it would make for a fun campaign... rags to riches through the Cleomenic reforms and trying to race through them as soon as possible and then trying to side with Macedon or another big boy instead of just provoking them.

[sammwich]

Originally posted by The True King:

I was thinking more of a system for sparta. Not that the women would hold main titles but lower titles that are not shown. Just a mechanic where, as your landed warriors die, the women gain power that is curbed by the king going to war then "asking" for assistance (lol). Some historic systems for Sparta would be cool. Maybe a ratio of landed warriors who die. It could simulate the females who remarry and the others who do not.

Roman women were also able to inherit from their husbands and would, generally, lose that property if they remarried. Such systems were not unusual for the time, even in highly patriarchal societies like Rome.

[Darthvegeta800]

Been playing Imperator Rome again a bit. I really like the progress that was made. Glad I didn't buy it on release but now I personally feel there is a lot of fun to be had. Although I do feel it's not quite there yet.
Having gone through the Spartan Mission set much further than before. Gonna try and drive Sparta through a full campaign.
Some ideas like this could perhaps be add to it in a similar system that makes you make branching choices but far less about investing but just specializing / changing things over time unique to your faction.

I'd love to see more law types. Perhaps some elements like in the old EU:R.
I suspect if the modding scene ever explodes for this game a lot of this sort of bolted on extra flavor can be added.