Ally nerf makes me sad.

[Lord Knightmarez]

New max allys.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2454986676
My top scores from before patch.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2454986876

My 4x ally 4x turret + pulse shield build was only 3rd place anyway.
Makes me sad.
No need for nerf in my opinion.

The ultimate over-powered build scores 4 million+ and doesn't use allys anyway.
This needed a nerf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp8GnjF05LA&ab_channel=Skept1cism
And this needed a nerf.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD935NmUc1o&t=164s&ab_channel=Shinrha

Allys struggle to get past 2 million because their strength comes from the group, and the weakest member of the group can be killed off. Against later waves with constant pressure they take chip damage and die, and once the group is dead its a struggle to build it up against the same unrelenting pressure.

Pulse shield was imo the best shield to counter this.
it pushed the energy orbs (particularly the wave-20 aqua boomerang guy who charges a ball which makes 3 energy-dragons)

Pulse shield nerf hits ally builds particularly hard.

and now -1 turret and -1ally as well?

me sad : (

awesome game none-the-less, but it means i won't even bother trying ally builds anymore.

[Treyell]

soo a while back overseer didnt double engis construct boni and then many people requested it to do. chimeric was hesitant as he thought 4 allies might be dangerours to the game as nithing would be able to rdmktely compete with engi in terms of allies. making allies an engi only mod. the overseer nerf recently kind of removed this again, but engi came out of it with extra drones and mines.

[Lord Knightmarez]

Well chimeric maybe miss judgedit, the 4mil + videos i showed you show who the really over-powered builds are. The pulse shield one looks like it's glitching the graphics of the game.

If engi ends up using overseer so what? That's engi's thing. Now it feels like there is no point even trying to play engi at all.

If someone can show me a 4 mil video of a minion build then prove it, but i don't think anyone ever did that.

[Treyell]

since we dont have analytics there is no way to tell what people are actually playing. and the overseer change was not because it was the strongest it was because no other body than engi could use allies effectively. here is a video of an engi run https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz3rXANmOA8

[Chimeric]

For what it's worth, I consider it all a work in progress. I'm likely to rework the whole assembly limit system and replace it with something else. This, at least, removes a lot of performance problems, and it's pretty easy to grant additional power to the constructs or bodies if we need to bring some more of that power back.

[Lord Knightmarez]

Performance issues? Ahh yes, i am used to playing on a beast of a computer, that's 100% a legit reason to reduce minion count.

Perhaps a minion health and damage bonus based on level would fit? As something to add to overseer?

Not sure how to make minions useful for other builds. It's a really mathematically weird and tricky problem to solve actually.

Love the game, chimeric you're doing good work.

I think you should perhaps add some sort of simple data-collection to the game.
Maybe hire a programmer who knows how to do it quickly and effectively if it's tricky?
It would really help with polishing the exact percentages and mechanics of various builds.
A simple

*score + build* data collection would work.

You could then analyse which perk combo's are getting the highest scores, and which ones never do.

[Sundowning.]

Originally posted by Lord Knightmarez:

And this needed a nerf.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD935NmUc1o&t=164s&ab_channel=Shinrha

Care to explain why it "needed" a nerf in your eyes? I think the exact opposite, but I'd love a solid argument on why a fun build should be nerfed on a singleplayer game.

Edi: This is where I come from. Certainly not 4 million, as I'm a casual player, and play this not for online leaderboards or anything except personal joy.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2455226698

@Chimeric: If someday you choose to implement older builds via beta branches, I'm in.

[Lord Knightmarez]

It looks glitchy, and it's insane score makes other builds irrelevant, which makes it depressing to even try anything other than that, or the vortex mine build.

Most players probably don't make it past 1 mil.

[Sundowning.]

I disagree, here's why.

It didn't look glitchy to me. That's a matter of personal taste, not an objective measurement for a nerf.

The "insane scores" (been playing for 75 hours, could never reach 3M as a casual myself) of a build don't force anyone to play anything on a single player game. What you mentioned, is a personal issue of not being able to settle with "lower" numbers, not an objective issue.

You, of course, don't like the celestial balls build. That's great! We don't have to like the same things. But coming here and saying "a nerf was needed" because you can't cope with a leaderboard? a video you saw on internet? on a singleplayer game, is something worth talking about.

Dude, I'd be super happy for you if your build got a buff and you could do higher numbers! What do I (or anyone) lose if you achieve what you enjoy on a SP game? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Seriously, this is the inner ♥♥♥♥ the human race has inside. We need to do better than the guy next to us. No matter the joy or fun, it's about who does it better. The e-peen, right?

Depression over smaller numbers is something really worth discussing.

As a side note, I just died on a salvo/warp/research build, 1.100.000+ score. This of course has zero bragging intended, as I'm a casual player with most to no skills other than reading the mod tooltips (I certainly could have done better and move off from research on time, I always get greedy and then I enter the 40's with little chances to switch). My point is: I just adapted from a 75 hour playstyle to a completely different one in 1 hour, reaching the 1m mark, which anyone can do.

If we're nerfing due to "personal visual tastes", it's wrong.
If we're nerfing due to "I see bigger numbers than mine!", it's wrong.
If we're nerfing because other players can't reach more than 1m, we're not wrong. We're plain doomed.

Let this be my also my argument to you Chimeric, on why I find this update underwhelming.

Single player means you level upwards, bringing the underdogs on par to high ground. Not shooting the good ones down in flames.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Edit: This of course has no offense intended and I apologize if something rubs you or anyone the wrong way, but some things you mentioned and some in the patch notes (the nerf to research for example, stating "something HAD to be done"... without having analytics on player builds on the table as a bare minimum) are worth being discussed and this is my take on it.

Basically some builds got whacked with the nerfhammer because they were popular, instead of taking the others up on par with those.

That's never a good sign, or a good design choice - nor one I would support or endorse.

[Lord Knightmarez]

...okay....

[Botji]

Originally posted by Lord Knightmarez:

Well chimeric maybe miss judgedit, the 4mil + videos i showed you show who the really over-powered builds are. The pulse shield one looks like it's glitching the graphics of the game.

If engi ends up using overseer so what? That's engi's thing. Now it feels like there is no point even trying to play engi at all.

If someone can show me a 4 mil video of a minion build then prove it, but i don't think anyone ever did that.

Not a video but a screenshot from the so called "Obsessed Allies" build:
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/nova-drift/images/e/ee/ObsessedAllies8.png/revision/latest?cb=20210122114309

Not my score, I dont really like the build since I think its cheesy/boring, like Levis but unlike Levis its not a snek so....

The first video you showed is well over a year old, a lot has changed since then and the current Vortex is imo already nerfed(doesnt seem to grow huge like before).

[Lord Knightmarez]

damn he got to 4 mil with allies? i didn't think that was possible. what did he do that is different?

I concede the performance issue problem, but in return allies should get a % buff based on level i think.

[Chimeric]

Pasting some additional thoughts I contributed to a discussion on reddit:

* The affected constructs were buffed to compensate for this partially, as well as several other construct related powers, and it should additionally be considered that the player's general power level has been creeping up without being put in check since the Wild Metamorphosis update. Whenever the player is given more choices, power creep naturally occurs at least in a small way. Compared to the way the game used to play, enemies are generally plowed through like popcorn, and this is one of the issues the next few updates intend to work on through better enemy support and synergy

* This shouldn't be considered the finished state of these builds, I plan to continue adjusting the power level as needed. It's just that I don't want sheer numbers and a highly specific load-out to be the requirement for that power.

* You can still get 4+ Advanced constructs with Wild Mods if you build around body powers

* Tangentially, performance was a problem with high ally counts, which is a major consideration for the game going to Switch / iOS

* Tinkering with power levels is an inexorable part of game development, please remember that this is an early access game, not a released one. It's best to reset your expectations for scores and wave reached between patches. The goal post is, and always will be, moving as I continue to iterate and experiment up until full release. If developers, during early access, are not allowed to do this, and even make mistakes & sometimes revert decisions, I assure you the resulting product is not as good

* The construct limit system will likely be totally overhauled and replaced by something else. The problem is that right now, if you can get 4 Allies, you can also get the maximum number of every other type of construct. That's too prolific to be balanced, and I have some things in mind

Thanks for your passion & patience! I know nerfs can feel rough, but it's also important to consider the meta as a whole and the end goal of a solid full release game.

[Bozobub]

I get it about player power levels, but I think you're ignoring Vanilla players; those nerfs hit WAY harder in that setting. One of the folks I know who plays is super-disappointed ^^' .

[anarcher]

The problem with 4 or more interceptors is the railgun warpstrike build. Nothing else came close to that insanity, everything was destroyed as soon as it appeared on screen.
4 guardian builds were balanced, hard to pull off and even harder to survive at high waves.

[Botji]

Originally posted by anarcher:

The problem with 4 or more interceptors is the railgun warpstrike build. Nothing else came close to that insanity, everything was destroyed as soon as it appeared on screen.
4 guardian builds were balanced, hard to pull off and even harder to survive at high waves.

Yeah it is the build I posted about earlier that broke 4 mil and if you look at the damage taken stat its only 1024 damage taken up to and including death at wave 527.

Railgun probably needs a similar penalty like Vortex has but instead of the Vortex dissipating faster the Railgun just needs a hefty -% damage modifier per projectile to keep it from being a screen wrapping shotgun/machinegun nuke launcher.

Or a rework of Warpstrike since that is what is enabling this to work in the first place, its such a huge thing to be able to just throw out bullets and they just do their own thing, often outside the screen, while you do nothing or just focus on avoiding the few shots or enemies that survives the storm.

Basically the same mechanic of why end game Leviathans are so good, cover everything with damage/yourself and you will break records