Lowsec PVP Destroyers

[tiberiansun371alexw]

I'm just curious what kind of destroyers are often favored in the low sec PVP corps. For example Snuffed Out is mostly based in low sec and Fraternity is mostly null. On July 29th, 2021, Snuffed Out was fed up with Fraternity blow up some of their POCOs, so they decided to kill a POCO in retaliation and the fight escacalated quickly. Due to the different environments the alliances operate in, their fleet compositions were different. Snuffed Out brought lots of Machariels and Fraternity spammed Tempests.

While lowsec and null sec are simmilair, no warp bubbles does mean certain tactics don't work. For example, interdictors shouldn't be brought to a fight. Well, maybe if you are confident you can win with 1/3 your original fleet you could throw in some idling interdictors just to pad the numbers, but if it's a fair fight these things are just slow frigates with little speed tank. In a null sec fight, being able to quickly kill interdictors mean you can extract if things go wrong, but in low sec that doesn't need to be worried about, so you don't need to make a ship really good at killing those. Fleet interceptors can prevent a warp though. And so these subtle differences mean compositions of low sec alliances will be different than null sec ones.

So what type of destroyers are often used by the lowsec alliances for general combat?

For the T1 destroyers, Thrashers are often seen at gates. But I somehow think general combat would use a different ship than a gate ship. Dragoons are much more survivable but I have no idea if their niche in capacitor warfare works well in lowsec as it does in null. I've seen Kikimoras do well against ratting ships, but I'm not sure if it would be a good fleet ship.

So what T1 destroyers are most popular among the low sec PVP fleets?

The next group of destroyers are interdictors. Well, unless they give Interdiction sphere launcher the ability to act in duel mode of either warp bubbles (null sec only) and warp scramble (act like scrambles can be used anywhere), these things don't do much here. And if they did give them duel mode, fleet interceptors would be obsolete. So moving on.

There are command destroyers. So do low sec alliances use Maguses like the null sec ones (when a command destroyer is used at all I mean)?

And there are the T3 destroyers. At one point all the low sec alliances seemed to use the Svipul, but I don't know if they still loved them after the nerf or if like the null sec blocks moved on to other stuff.

So what T1 destroyers command destroyers, and T3 destroyer are loved by low sec alliances? I know none of the destroyers will get the love Machariels do, but some of them are being used. Oh I'm talking about general combat, not ganking ships.

[Shotgun]

From what I know, Coercers and Thrashers are the two most widely-used destroyers in the game. They have that mix of damage and range that makes them viable for fleet engagements. Missiles and drones are usually avoided in small-ship fleet warfare due to travel time and other factors, so that rules out 4 different models right there. That just leaves the Catalyst and Cormorant, and those two don't have the damage/range mix I think.

Once you move past T1, everything has a purpose, but I don't think you'd see interdictors in general combat because of the price/performance ratio. All of the T3s are very good, in their own ways.

[tiberiansun371alexw]

引用自 Shotgun：

From what I know, Coercers and Thrashers are the two most widely-used destroyers in the game. They have that mix of damage and range that makes them viable for fleet engagements. Missiles and drones are usually avoided in small-ship fleet warfare due to travel time and other factors, so that rules out 4 different models right there. That just leaves the Catalyst and Cormorant, and those two don't have the damage/range mix I think.

Once you move past T1, everything has a purpose, but I don't think you'd see interdictors in general combat because of the price/performance ratio. All of the T3s are very good, in their own ways.

Some of the larger low-sec corps do have full fleet engagements, so I wasn't just limiting myself to small scale engagments in this thought excerise. Large lowsec fleets are large, they're just different. Snuffed Out for instance often has engagements of 30+ pilots.

I know how good Coercers and Thrashers are for general use. I know Tempests are generally good, but like in one case Snuffed brough 7 Machariels for every Tempest and in their fights Machariels usually see more use than Tempests. That made me wonder if their destroyer preference was different than that of the null sec powers since their battleship preference was different. Or maybe they still like Thrashers. I don't know so I decided to ask politely.

I tried to figure things out using killmails, but since I don't know the ship who delivers the killing blow only the dead ship, killmails will mostly fill up with the most shot at things. Just like how Killmails can sometimes give the impression Fleet Interceptors make up a larger proportion of a fleet than they actually are (these killmails are often not them dying in the main fleet battles but them getting killed by the thing they're trying to tackle when they forget to turn of their MWD and their signature radius is practically a battleship).

Low sec alliances don't bother with interdictors for the reasons you just described which is why I just said "so moving on."

[firestar587]

引用自 tiberiansun371alexw：

引用自 Shotgun：

From what I know, Coercers and Thrashers are the two most widely-used destroyers in the game. They have that mix of damage and range that makes them viable for fleet engagements. Missiles and drones are usually avoided in small-ship fleet warfare due to travel time and other factors, so that rules out 4 different models right there. That just leaves the Catalyst and Cormorant, and those two don't have the damage/range mix I think.

Once you move past T1, everything has a purpose, but I don't think you'd see interdictors in general combat because of the price/performance ratio. All of the T3s are very good, in their own ways.

Some of the larger low-sec corps do have full fleet engagements, so I wasn't just limiting myself to small scale engagments in this thought excerise. Large lowsec fleets are large, they're just different. Snuffed Out for instance often has engagements of 30+ pilots.

I know how good Coercers and Thrashers are for general use. I know Tempests are generally good, but like in one case Snuffed brough 7 Machariels for every Tempest and in their fights Machariels usually see more use than Tempests. That made me wonder if their destroyer preference was different than that of the null sec powers since their battleship preference was different. Or maybe they still like Thrashers. I don't know so I decided to ask politely.

I tried to figure things out using killmails, but since I don't know the ship who delivers the killing blow only the dead ship, killmails will mostly fill up with the most shot at things. Just like how Killmails can sometimes give the impression Fleet Interceptors make up a larger proportion of a fleet than they actually are (these killmails are often not them dying in the main fleet battles but them getting killed by the thing they're trying to tackle when they forget to turn of their MWD and their signature radius is practically a battleship).

Low sec alliances don't bother with interdictors for the reasons you just described which is why I just said "so moving on."

TFIs and mahcs are both used in about the same way and for the same reason, arty has very high alpha strike which is great for a large fleet, 50 machs would barely be a content against a 250 man fleet with a large logi wing, 100-150 would be a massive threat due to the ability to just volley a target off the field making logi useless. machs (and TFIs just less) also have large EHP pools, even more so when you factor in snuffed using high-grade amulet pods often

also as for why snuffed brought 7 machs for every temptest, a mach is pretty much just a better tempest (and snuffs mainline battleship doctrine), but at more cost and is likely lower SP/isk players not able to fly the mach

as for the destroyer question, the same thing pretty much applies just for destroyers rather then battleships, high alpha is king in decent sized fleets. corecer is used due to its high dps and good ability to chose its range tho i wouldn't like its chances against a arty thrasher fleet unless they could get to point blank.

tho if you are seeing destroyer as a support fleet or something, it is HIGHLY likely for it to be something like jackdaws (or any T3D) rather then T1 destroyers

[Zen]

- Catalysts are used for brawling, which is not a preferred way of fighting in low
- Cormorants are used mostly in its longbow configuration, for which you need at least 30-50 people otherwise you're basically spitting on the enemy
- Algoses and dragoons - potentially too hard to manage in fast fleets due to drones
- coraxes - their survivability+dps is I think surpassed by talwars,
- talwars - ...not sure why those are not being used but might be because missiles are slow
- thrashers and coercers, see above.

[tiberiansun371alexw]

引用自 firestar587：

TFIs and mahcs are both used in about the same way and for the same reason, arty has very high alpha strike which is great for a large fleet, 50 machs would barely be a content against a 250 man fleet with a large logi wing, 100-150 would be a massive threat due to the ability to just volley a target off the field making logi useless. machs (and TFIs just less) also have large EHP pools, even more so when you factor in snuffed using high-grade amulet pods often

Yeah, I know alpha strike can be important. One small group that uses only subcapitals i know of has 3/4 of its players not understanding this and just shooting whatever comes closest, or if multiple targets are in optimal range, shooting what is close that they think has the least resistance to their weapons, leaving the remaining 1/4 of the fleet wishing the corporation weren't dependant on the incompetent 3/4 to keep the finances topped off.

And that's before we talk about larger fleet engagements and logi. With logi you pretty much have to make sure something goes down in one hit.

引用自 firestar587：

also as for why snuffed brought 7 machs for every temptest, a mach is pretty much just a better tempest (and snuffs mainline battleship doctrine), but at more cost and is likely lower SP/isk players not able to fly the mach

Ah, thanks for answering. I know there is a lot of simmilarities between large low sec fights and the null sec ones, but warp bubbles disaaude certain tactics. For example in one fight in Rakapas that happened some time ago one side escalated to capitals in a way that would have left them extremely vulnerable to a counterdrop if it was null sec.

So I was wondering it could be something complicated like "well ship A is really good at killing destroyers, and is a much more cost effective means of killing interdictors than T1 crusiers and battleships are. Due to the combination of ship bonus (which makes people prefer one type of turret or drone), signature radius, damage type and damage resistance, ship B was often used to counter ship A. Due to a combination of ship bonus, signature radius, damage type, and damage resistance ship C is good against ship B. And due to those same factors, Tempests are good against ship C and Machariels can kill ship C, but less effectivly. In low sec, there are no interdictors, so you see less ship A, so you see less ship B, and finally because of that you see less ship C. Machariels are like Tempests, but they get another turret, are a bit tankier, and get more CPU to slap some modules in, and we see less ship C to worry about"

But it's not anything involving complicated damage calculations and tactics but something simpler like "Ok, Machariels are what we want for alpha damage. Are most us us trained for them? Great, let's fit in"

引用自 firestar587：

tho if you are seeing destroyer as a support fleet or something, it is HIGHLY likely for it to be something like jackdaws (or any T3D) rather then T1 destroyers

You're probably right. Tho for the T1 destroyers if they did show up, if alpha is important in lowsec as it is in null, I guess Thrashers would be present. of course they're still outclassed by Jackdaws.

引用自 Zen：

-
- talwars - ...not sure why those are not being used but might be because missiles are slow

Even if missiles weren't slow, Thrashers beat them in alpha damage, at least if we're assuming in both cases w'ere shooting at something moving in a straight line.

[firestar587]

引用自 tiberiansun371alexw：

引用自 firestar587：

TFIs and mahcs are both used in about the same way and for the same reason, arty has very high alpha strike which is great for a large fleet, 50 machs would barely be a content against a 250 man fleet with a large logi wing, 100-150 would be a massive threat due to the ability to just volley a target off the field making logi useless. machs (and TFIs just less) also have large EHP pools, even more so when you factor in snuffed using high-grade amulet pods often

Yeah, I know alpha strike can be important. One small group that uses only subcapitals i know of has 3/4 of its players not understanding this and just shooting whatever comes closest, or if multiple targets are in optimal range, shooting what is close that they think has the least resistance to their weapons, leaving the remaining 1/4 of the fleet wishing the corporation weren't dependant on the incompetent 3/4 to keep the finances topped off.

And that's before we talk about larger fleet engagements and logi. With logi you pretty much have to make sure something goes down in one hit.

引用自 firestar587：

also as for why snuffed brought 7 machs for every temptest, a mach is pretty much just a better tempest (and snuffs mainline battleship doctrine), but at more cost and is likely lower SP/isk players not able to fly the mach

Ah, thanks for answering. I know there is a lot of simmilarities between large low sec fights and the null sec ones, but warp bubbles disaaude certain tactics. For example in one fight in Rakapas that happened some time ago one side escalated to capitals in a way that would have left them extremely vulnerable to a counterdrop if it was null sec.

So I was wondering it could be something complicated like "well ship A is really good at killing destroyers, and is a much more cost effective means of killing interdictors than T1 crusiers and battleships are. Due to the combination of ship bonus (which makes people prefer one type of turret or drone), signature radius, damage type and damage resistance, ship B was often used to counter ship A. Due to a combination of ship bonus, signature radius, damage type, and damage resistance ship C is good against ship B. And due to those same factors, Tempests are good against ship C and Machariels can kill ship C, but less effectivly. In low sec, there are no interdictors, so you see less ship A, so you see less ship B, and finally because of that you see less ship C. Machariels are like Tempests, but they get another turret, are a bit tankier, and get more CPU to slap some modules in, and we see less ship C to worry about"

But it's not anything involving complicated damage calculations and tactics but something simpler like "Ok, Machariels are what we want for alpha damage. Are most us us trained for them? Great, let's fit in"

1. who the ♥♥♥♥ is the FC not yelling at them to shoot the broadcasted target, every FC i know of would be pissed if 3/4 weren't following targeting orders

2. yeah to break logi you either 1. need to alpha the target 2. neut the logi 3. ECM the logi 4. be able to track and kill the logi 5. out DPS their repping power

3. yeah lowsec it is much harder to mass tackle so its easier for a fleet to evac

4. ok long one.
projectile turrets are the highest form of alpha turrets, needless to say with the importance in big fleet fights of alpha they are favored, it wasn't some complex thing to counter a specifc hostile doctrine (tho that has happened in eve history) machs were picked by snuffed because they have more EHP, better tracking, pretty much the same alpha and a better rate of fire when compared to a tempest. a large number of groups run form of the tempest-TFI-mach doctrine due to being the battleship best able to run projectile turrets.
the goal of a mainline DPS ship is to be able to punch the enemy in the face as hard as possible and take as many punches as possible. things like you described really would only happen with something third-partying a fight in which a doctrine gets hard countered and that doctrine gets countered. this could also happen with somebody third partying a 1v1.
also machs aren't used by snuffed because its lowsec, they are used becuase they have the isk. if snuffed for whatever took over NS space they would still use machs. in fact many NS groups use pirate faction battleship doctrines (NSH use rattlesnakes, i think PL does as well. nightmares and machs are also common) none of the super big groups use them as mainline as they aren't super common ships but they are def used, snuffed just happens to be a LS group.

also machs would NEVER be less effective at killing something then a tempest

5. thrashers are outclassed by jackdaws UNLESS the thrasher fleet is of the size they can alpha thru a defense mode jackdaw and in range to be able to do so, else they will just get murdered at range

[tiberiansun371alexw]

引用自 firestar587：

1. who the ♥♥♥♥ is the FC not yelling at them to shoot the broadcasted target, every FC i know of would be pissed if 3/4 weren't following targeting orders

2. yeah to break logi you either 1. need to alpha the target 2. neut the logi 3. ECM the logi 4. be able to track and kill the logi 5. out DPS their repping power

3. yeah lowsec it is much harder to mass tackle so its easier for a fleet to evac

4. ok long one.
projectile turrets are the highest form of alpha turrets, needless to say with the importance in big fleet fights of alpha they are favored, it wasn't some complex thing to counter a specifc hostile doctrine (tho that has happened in eve history) machs were picked by snuffed because they have more EHP, better tracking, pretty much the same alpha and a better rate of fire when compared to a tempest. a large number of groups run form of the tempest-TFI-mach doctrine due to being the battleship best able to run projectile turrets.
the goal of a mainline DPS ship is to be able to punch the enemy in the face as hard as possible and take as many punches as possible. things like you described really would only happen with something third-partying a fight in which a doctrine gets hard countered and that doctrine gets countered. this could also happen with somebody third partying a 1v1.
also machs aren't used by snuffed because its lowsec, they are used becuase they have the isk. if snuffed for whatever took over NS space they would still use machs. in fact many NS groups use pirate faction battleship doctrines (NSH use rattlesnakes, i think PL does as well. nightmares and machs are also common) none of the super big groups use them as mainline as they aren't super common ships but they are def used, snuffed just happens to be a LS group.

also machs would NEVER be less effective at killing something then a tempest

5. thrashers are outclassed by jackdaws UNLESS the thrasher fleet is of the size they can alpha thru a defense mode jackdaw and in range to be able to do so, else they will just get murdered at range

1) An FC resigned to the fact that his fleet contains himself 12 actual fleet ships and 39 idiot real life friends of the CEO who think more about "damage" than "winning." Well at least 3 of those idiots are the tackles who tackles the correct target, even though they'll still shoot whatever is closest over the ship that needs to be destroyed when they are in range of the ship that needs to be destroyed and the tackle targets. I bet he was more mad than resigned the first time this happened. Although given the idiots spend a lot of time generating ISK for the corp, I bet they would still be around even if they weren't friends of the CEO, who says as long as his friends are having fun and his friends aren't taking the corp;s finances (on the contrary, they're contributing since they spend lots of time making ISK when not doing PVP everyone pays for their own ship), they're harmless.

2 and 3) Makes sense

4) Yeah I got the message after your first post, Machariels weren't used by Snuffed due to it being low sec causing a change in tactics, but just that Machariels were good and their pilots had the skills.

5) Well of course the Jackdaws are better. T3 destroyers are the apex of the class. When I was making this post I was wondering "Well, what destoryers of each group make sense for lowsec?" (aside from interdictors, which don't make sense). And you gave me the answer I wanted: Alpha is King. So for T1s, Thrashers are good. Obviously the T3 destoryers are just awesome. It's the answer I was expecting, but wasn't entirely sure.

[firestar587]

its worth adding here, alpha is only king in fleet fights where you have the numbers of alpha them off the field, in small gang where this often isn't the case so you will see a bigger focus on DPS then alpha.
as for the question, for T1 you will prob find pretty much every single destroyer used for something. for t2 well in LS command destroyers are just as good as in NS and dictors are useless so not much of a question there. for t3 well thats interesting a hecate fleet if it can get on top of and tackle anything else will prob win but is out ranged by everything else, confessors and sivpuls i don't think iv never seen used in fleets so no idea about them. jackdaws are long range snipers with everything you would expect about a long range kite sniper.

and the final thing, it had nothing to do with snuffed pilots having the skills to fly/fit machs a groups skills will pretty much never pick their doctrine, 99.999% of the time it is the other way around, a doctrine is picked and then people skill into it. (side note machs aren't just good, they are great even more so the ones run by snuffed as they run with high grade amulet pods which give them great EHP)

[tiberiansun371alexw]

引用自 firestar587：

and the final thing, it had nothing to do with snuffed pilots having the skills to fly/fit machs a groups skills will pretty much never pick their doctrine, 99.999% of the time it is the other way around, a doctrine is picked and then people skill into it. (side note machs aren't just good, they are great even more so the ones run by snuffed as they run with high grade amulet pods which give them great EHP)

Hmmm, makes me wonder why Fraternity went for Tempest spam instead of matching Snuffed Out in that fight on ship type. Did they just recruit a bunch of alpha pilots?

[firestar587]

引用自 tiberiansun371alexw：

引用自 firestar587：

and the final thing, it had nothing to do with snuffed pilots having the skills to fly/fit machs a groups skills will pretty much never pick their doctrine, 99.999% of the time it is the other way around, a doctrine is picked and then people skill into it. (side note machs aren't just good, they are great even more so the ones run by snuffed as they run with high grade amulet pods which give them great EHP)

Hmmm, makes me wonder why Fraternity went for Tempest spam instead of matching Snuffed Out in that fight on ship type. Did they just recruit a bunch of alpha pilots?

TFIs fully fit are about the same price as the HULL of a mach, add on full fits which norm have faction modules, not even to mention snuffed running few billion isk in each pods and its pretty easy to see why WC picked TFIs over machs. the difference between a TFI and mach also isn't insane tho yes a T1 tempest is totally outclassed, the faction tempest isn't as outclassed

tho i couldn't find a snuffed fleet mach (well done to them for ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ WC in hakoen so hard they didn't lose a single mach) comparing a pair of battleships from a brawl between NSH and RC https://br.evetools.org/br/6108cb33be4b4500395c31d4
we see a the lose of a TFI from NSH https://kb.evetools.org/kill/94276402/ and a mach from RC https://kb.evetools.org/kill/94276240/ in which the mach and TFI have close EHP and alpha strike. tho isn't a great comparsion as WC TFIs are about 50-100 million cheaper then the TFIs run by NSH and with the lack of mach loses in that fight its hard to tell their exact doctrine, (that i can't be bothered to track down RCs mach doctrine)

tldr: mach is better, but not by a massive amount compared to the TFI