EVE Online

EVE Online

Paroe Feb 2, 2017 @ 3:25pm
Question about how damage happens?
With 600 alpha damage on a small turret, WHY am i only doing my dps (75 or so) damage?
It used to oneshot things... whats changed? Because its bull that a fully fit artillery ship cant dispose of its intended targets.
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Showing 1-14 of 14 comments
Harrison Feb 2, 2017 @ 3:33pm 
There's a lot involved in how damage is calculated.

All ships have resistances, some high and some low. Part of it is that what you're shooting might have high resists to the type of damage you're doing. You can find the damage types by showing info on the ammo you're using.

The other side of the damage calculation is tracking. I won't bother trying to explain how tracking works, I just know it does. Here's a video that someone else showed me to explain it. It's a little dated, tracking is now represted by an "Accuracy" score or some such rather than in radians/sec but the basics are still true.
https://youtu.be/JvfhVXbMgc8
(The video is geared toward pvp but the underlying mechanics are also true in pve)
Last edited by Harrison; Feb 2, 2017 @ 3:34pm
Paroe Feb 2, 2017 @ 3:52pm 
Originally posted by Harrison:
There's a lot involved in how damage is calculated.

All ships have resistances, some high and some low. Part of it is that what you're shooting might have high resists to the type of damage you're doing. You can find the damage types by showing info on the ammo you're using.

The other side of the damage calculation is tracking. I won't bother trying to explain how tracking works, I just know it does. Here's a video that someone else showed me to explain it. It's a little dated, tracking is now represted by an "Accuracy" score or some such rather than in radians/sec but the basics are still true.
https://youtu.be/JvfhVXbMgc8
(The video is geared toward pvp but the underlying mechanics are also true in pve)

I think what im running into is a bug.
It was, it seemed, only doing the damage of ONE turret when all my hardpoints are grouped together. Changing one artillery to an auto cannon and grouping the artillery seems to have increased my damage back to normal levels.

Also...
7 artilerry. 229 thermal, 129 kinetic, 229 explosive.
In no world would a RAT be reducing that to between 80 and 40 at 10km+.
Paroe Feb 2, 2017 @ 7:45pm 
Yeaaaah im almost entirely sure that its a bug of some kind with grouped weapons in the 1 slot.
Harrison Feb 2, 2017 @ 9:21pm 
If you're sure put a bug report in.

I don't remember the exact procedure (and I'm at work so I can't check) but I think you can do it through the options menu ingame. I think there's a button for support tickets there.
battlecattle Feb 2, 2017 @ 9:58pm 
f12 brings up the help center window, I think there's a bug report button there.
Kyutaru Feb 3, 2017 @ 4:18am 
Originally posted by Paroe:
I think what im running into is a bug.
It was, it seemed, only doing the damage of ONE turret when all my hardpoints are grouped together. Changing one artillery to an auto cannon and grouping the artillery seems to have increased my damage back to normal levels.

Also...
7 artilerry. 229 thermal, 129 kinetic, 229 explosive.
In no world would a RAT be reducing that to between 80 and 40 at 10km+.

Actually it can, the game's been around for 14 years so I doubt it's safe to jump to bug assumption. Damage can be reduced to damn near zero, especially when some rats have 80% resistance to it and are moving at stupid miles per hour. My turrets do 50+ dmg to some rats and only 2 or 3 dmg to others.

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_damage

Several factors:

1) Optimal Range - Shots can do anywhere from 50% to 150% damage when they hit with 100% accuracy. Which they will typically do when in Optimal range and with sufficient tracking. The issue here is that projectile turrets like Artillery have the worst Optimal ranges of all the turret types, with the small ones ranging between 8km and 10km base.

2) Falloff Range - Shots outside your optimal range will start to drop off in damage until they're barely even touching the target at long distance, which targets around the first falloff increment taking 50% damage (it scales though). You shouldn't have much of a problem with this with Artillery since they have awesome falloff ranges, boasting about 8.75km so there's not much of a drop when combined with the optimal.

3) Ammo Type - Your choice of ammo severely impacts your damage by affecting your optimal range. Some projectile ammo cuts your optimal by 50%, others improve it by 60%. Based on your damage numbers, I'm guessing you're using Depleted Uranium so you have no bonuses or penalties to Optimal range and a slight improvement for tracking.

4) Accuracy - Even if all your ranges are great having poor tracking speed or an extremely small enemy signiature radius (like most frigates/drones) or an enemy that's moving at a crazy angular velocity to you will cause your hit chance to drop from 100% fast. The more it drops the less damage you can potentially do. You can get as low as 1% chance to hit which would only give you 51% maximum damage (excluding perfect hits). Of course, if one of your turrets MISSES it also deals 0 damage.

5) Enemy Resistance - Enemies can be highly resistant to your damage types, having on average 50% to 80% resistances against them with a weakness or two around 20% to 40%. This means that you're shaving off gross amounts of damage shooting anyone.



So what I'm thinking is that by grouping your turrets you no longer see your misses. At 10km a few of your turrets are missing the target due to angular velocity reducing hit chance, cutting your damage by a percentage. I have no idea what your accuracy is so let's call it 33% misses at such a close range with such a long distance gun with poor tracking. Your autocannon is better at those ranges due to tracking speed so it hits more often.

Next, your enemy is murdering a percentage of your damage, which when averaged means you're doing about 50% less of that total 600 you're boasting. And since 33% of your 300 remaining dmg was missed.... you're looking at about 200 left. Then comes the damage formula cutting up to 50% of your damage sometimes due to hit chance and accuracy deviation. So your 600 alpha strike only does 100 dmg.

The fact that you're getting even less damage means one of these factors is affecting you more than I have guessed. My professional opinion would be the tracking speed, especially since you got back DPS after switching guns. Artillery isn't all that great at dogfighting because it has a tracking speed of only 0.064 rad/sec. This is compared to an Autocannon which has 0.315 rad/sec tracking speed, almost 5 times more ability to hit its target. Since both the movement of you/target relative to each other and the target's signature radius (size) affect your damage and its crit potential you want to have better accuracy before improving damage.

The reason you were one-shotting things before is because you were landing Wrecking hits on them. Now you're probably getting a lot of misses and Glances. You can see this by splitting all your artillery and firing them, which will show you the numbers and misses for each gun. It's not at all unsual for high alpha guns to get low values until you raise your skills or use better equipment. Typically if you're going to use turrets people bring a Tracking Computer or a few Tracking Enhancers to ensure their guns are dealing the maximum damage possible.
Last edited by Kyutaru; Feb 3, 2017 @ 4:20am
MG Coin Feb 3, 2017 @ 6:44am 
because you're probably grazing them, and they have resistance
Exo Feb 3, 2017 @ 7:21am 
alpha damage is reduced by:
Your turret tracking VS ennemy sig radius + radial velocity
Then that reduced damage is again reduced by their resistance profile.
NPC have differents resists profile depending on their NPC faction.
Google eve NPC damage type.
Paroe Feb 3, 2017 @ 3:51pm 
Originally posted by Kyutaru:
Originally posted by Paroe:
I think what im running into is a bug.
It was, it seemed, only doing the damage of ONE turret when all my hardpoints are grouped together. Changing one artillery to an auto cannon and grouping the artillery seems to have increased my damage back to normal levels.

Also...
7 artilerry. 229 thermal, 129 kinetic, 229 explosive.
In no world would a RAT be reducing that to between 80 and 40 at 10km+.

Actually it can, the game's been around for 14 years so I doubt it's safe to jump to bug assumption. Damage can be reduced to damn near zero, especially when some rats have 80% resistance to it and are moving at stupid miles per hour. My turrets do 50+ dmg to some rats and only 2 or 3 dmg to others.

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_damage

Several factors:

1) Optimal Range - Shots can do anywhere from 50% to 150% damage when they hit with 100% accuracy. Which they will typically do when in Optimal range and with sufficient tracking. The issue here is that projectile turrets like Artillery have the worst Optimal ranges of all the turret types, with the small ones ranging between 8km and 10km base.

2) Falloff Range - Shots outside your optimal range will start to drop off in damage until they're barely even touching the target at long distance, which targets around the first falloff increment taking 50% damage (it scales though). You shouldn't have much of a problem with this with Artillery since they have awesome falloff ranges, boasting about 8.75km so there's not much of a drop when combined with the optimal.

3) Ammo Type - Your choice of ammo severely impacts your damage by affecting your optimal range. Some projectile ammo cuts your optimal by 50%, others improve it by 60%. Based on your damage numbers, I'm guessing you're using Depleted Uranium so you have no bonuses or penalties to Optimal range and a slight improvement for tracking.

4) Accuracy - Even if all your ranges are great having poor tracking speed or an extremely small enemy signiature radius (like most frigates/drones) or an enemy that's moving at a crazy angular velocity to you will cause your hit chance to drop from 100% fast. The more it drops the less damage you can potentially do. You can get as low as 1% chance to hit which would only give you 51% maximum damage (excluding perfect hits). Of course, if one of your turrets MISSES it also deals 0 damage.

5) Enemy Resistance - Enemies can be highly resistant to your damage types, having on average 50% to 80% resistances against them with a weakness or two around 20% to 40%. This means that you're shaving off gross amounts of damage shooting anyone.



So what I'm thinking is that by grouping your turrets you no longer see your misses. At 10km a few of your turrets are missing the target due to angular velocity reducing hit chance, cutting your damage by a percentage. I have no idea what your accuracy is so let's call it 33% misses at such a close range with such a long distance gun with poor tracking. Your autocannon is better at those ranges due to tracking speed so it hits more often.

Next, your enemy is murdering a percentage of your damage, which when averaged means you're doing about 50% less of that total 600 you're boasting. And since 33% of your 300 remaining dmg was missed.... you're looking at about 200 left. Then comes the damage formula cutting up to 50% of your damage sometimes due to hit chance and accuracy deviation. So your 600 alpha strike only does 100 dmg.

The fact that you're getting even less damage means one of these factors is affecting you more than I have guessed. My professional opinion would be the tracking speed, especially since you got back DPS after switching guns. Artillery isn't all that great at dogfighting because it has a tracking speed of only 0.064 rad/sec. This is compared to an Autocannon which has 0.315 rad/sec tracking speed, almost 5 times more ability to hit its target. Since both the movement of you/target relative to each other and the target's signature radius (size) affect your damage and its crit potential you want to have better accuracy before improving damage.

The reason you were one-shotting things before is because you were landing Wrecking hits on them. Now you're probably getting a lot of misses and Glances. You can see this by splitting all your artillery and firing them, which will show you the numbers and misses for each gun. It's not at all unsual for high alpha guns to get low values until you raise your skills or use better equipment. Typically if you're going to use turrets people bring a Tracking Computer or a few Tracking Enhancers to ensure their guns are dealing the maximum damage possible.

While all great information, the reason i assume its a bug is because going back and refitting one turret hardpoint with an auto cannon suddenly raised my damage against targets i DID hit within 2000m. It went back to popping drones and frigates like it should with 300~400 damage per shot, which is much more reasonable.
Kyutaru Feb 3, 2017 @ 5:41pm 
Originally posted by Paroe:
While all great information, the reason i assume its a bug is because going back and refitting one turret hardpoint with an auto cannon suddenly raised my damage against targets i DID hit within 2000m. It went back to popping drones and frigates like it should with 300~400 damage per shot, which is much more reasonable.
Each turret hits independently. Grouping them doesn't mean they all hit. At such a close range, the artillery turrets are useless. Your autocannon is improving dps because it's actually striking the targets as opposed to before when most of the turrets were missing.

As an example, replace ALL of your turrets with autocannons and then watch your damage output... <_<
BobDoleReigns Feb 4, 2017 @ 8:28am 
Originally posted by Kyutaru:
Originally posted by Paroe:
While all great information, the reason i assume its a bug is because going back and refitting one turret hardpoint with an auto cannon suddenly raised my damage against targets i DID hit within 2000m. It went back to popping drones and frigates like it should with 300~400 damage per shot, which is much more reasonable.
Each turret hits independently. Grouping them doesn't mean they all hit. At such a close range, the artillery turrets are useless. Your autocannon is improving dps because it's actually striking the targets as opposed to before when most of the turrets were missing.

As an example, replace ALL of your turrets with autocannons and then watch your damage output... <_<

Yes BUT the paper damage it shows you will not reflect this, it is just a pure 100% damage 100% hit 0% resists estimation.
Paroe Feb 4, 2017 @ 2:58pm 
Originally posted by Kyutaru:
Originally posted by Paroe:
While all great information, the reason i assume its a bug is because going back and refitting one turret hardpoint with an auto cannon suddenly raised my damage against targets i DID hit within 2000m. It went back to popping drones and frigates like it should with 300~400 damage per shot, which is much more reasonable.
Each turret hits independently. Grouping them doesn't mean they all hit. At such a close range, the artillery turrets are useless. Your autocannon is improving dps because it's actually striking the targets as opposed to before when most of the turrets were missing.

As an example, replace ALL of your turrets with autocannons and then watch your damage output... <_<

Uhm...
My autocannon didnt imrpove dps. It let the other turrets hit.
When moving in a straight line at above 10km, 280mm howitzers should hit for the most part and not graze.
Before, i got the damage of ONE turret; about 1/7th of the potential damage.

Therefore, it was a bug. Because even though they were grouped, it only activated one turret.
Kyutaru Feb 4, 2017 @ 7:03pm 
Originally posted by Paroe:
When moving in a straight line at above 10km, 280mm howitzers should hit for the most part and not graze.
Before, i got the damage of ONE turret; about 1/7th of the potential damage.
Several things...

1) This isn't the case, you likely haven't played with howitzers much... I recommend adding velocity to your overview so you can see why they're piss poor at hitting things.

2) You seem to think your paper dps is real and that your turrets should be hitting for that amount. As previously mentioned, that literally never happens. Enemies will nerf your damage by huge percentages on resists alone.

http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/inventory.php?category_id=11

3) As I said already, replace all of your turrets with Autocannons then go test again. You'll be amazed at how much more damage you're dealing given your cited ranges. This is purely due to the amazing power of accuracy and tracking speed.


At this point I've given you all of the information you require to understand how damage is dealt per the topic. What you do or believe from there is no longer my concern. I only hope you don't adhere to a benighted standoff and explore the concepts further. :D
Last edited by Kyutaru; Feb 4, 2017 @ 7:07pm
Paroe Feb 5, 2017 @ 9:34pm 
Originally posted by Kyutaru:
Originally posted by Paroe:
When moving in a straight line at above 10km, 280mm howitzers should hit for the most part and not graze.
Before, i got the damage of ONE turret; about 1/7th of the potential damage.
Several things...

1) This isn't the case, you likely haven't played with howitzers much... I recommend adding velocity to your overview so you can see why they're piss poor at hitting things.

2) You seem to think your paper dps is real and that your turrets should be hitting for that amount. As previously mentioned, that literally never happens. Enemies will nerf your damage by huge percentages on resists alone.

http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/inventory.php?category_id=11

3) As I said already, replace all of your turrets with Autocannons then go test again. You'll be amazed at how much more damage you're dealing given your cited ranges. This is purely due to the amazing power of accuracy and tracking speed.


At this point I've given you all of the information you require to understand how damage is dealt per the topic. What you do or believe from there is no longer my concern. I only hope you don't adhere to a benighted standoff and explore the concepts further. :D

... reading comprehension is hard, apparantly. How is it way up there on the soap box?
1) In PvE, heavy artillery is meant to "pop". What i ran into was, in fact, a bug. You would understand this if you actually read my posts about the problem.

2) Nowhere have i said my alpha should be the damage im actually doing.

3) I dont like the dps race playstyle. You know what i did in lowsec? I got a full fleet of tornadoes with a 100km engage distance and we gate camped. With large, heavy artillery. We popped even battleships with two or three volleys. That was fun, very much so. Its why i like missiles so much, but missiles are blegh right now.
Not everyone has to adhere to what the "best thing ever" is. My thrasher is just fine popping player frigates and NPC destroyers from 25km out, and thats the playstyle i enjoy.

Let me say this again; What i ran into, and what prompted me to make the thread was a BUG. It happens on my thrasher (the only ship i can test it with) when all SEVEN of my turret hardpoints are grouped together in the first slot. The game was, for some reason, ONLY FIRING ONE TURRET. The amount of ammo used also reflected that only one turret was being fired.
Changing one hardpoint to an auto cannon fixed the problem, and moving the group of 7 to the second slot has stopped the problem from happening again.
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Date Posted: Feb 2, 2017 @ 3:25pm
Posts: 14