The IMO central problem(s) with Robin Ayou as a protagonist (minor spoilers)

[YertyL]

I am sure I am not the first person who had this thought, but I wanted to give it its own thread after going back to the original Subnautica having played BZ and noticing how glaring the difference is:

In Subnautica it is really, really easy to identify with the protagonist. We know almost nothing about him, and his main attribute is that he is exactly as overwhelmed by the siutation as the player likely feels. Both the player and their avatar then gradually learn more and become more competent, and in the end go from a frightened amateur to the savior of the planet. Classic, simple and satisfying.

Robin, on the other hand, is set up as someone who not only planned their trip (to a planet that is at this point at least somewhat studied), but apparently does this exact thing for a living. This is already a bad match for the central gameplay in subnautica, which consists of starting naive and gradually learning more about your environment to master it. I think it is also much easier to identify with someone who stumbles into danger through no fault of their own rather than someone who actively jumps into it -- think of jurassic park 1 versus 3.

But then, in-game, despite her preparation and nominal competence she behaves exactly as the person that got stranded on accident. We are now doubly disconnected from her as a player avatar. Add to this an emotional setup that is more confusing than anything, and the same pattern of "described as competent and righteous but acts naively and morally questionable" for many other characters in the game, and it is very easy to completely lose your connection to the events. The last pattern might be what some people mean when they criticize the game as "woke" -- though one can reasonably argue that the disconnect between a character's establishment and description and their actions in the story is a common problem with bad writing in general.

TL:DR: The story of Sub1 is a classic, modest underdog story that works well with the active participation of the player. B:Z does more, but has a tendency to both underdevelop and oversell, and this is apparent from the very setup of both games.

[bongerman85]

im in agreement on the statement about the writing, the audio logs while kind of niice, are extremely poorly written. most of the people working on the planet before you arrive feel cold and desolate. i was particularly disappointed with the strange story telling of the gay male character. guy came off as a pompous ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ when writing the audio log to his husband. beyond that the only characters that seemed to have any depth were the seatruck pilot, sam, and lil. the rest of the logs and characters felt hollow. alan was a cool guy to have along for the ride and i did enjoy the banter between robin and alan... in addition a couple of story elements arent included in the required stuff for finishing the game. which does leave some areas unexplored and sometimes completely missed.

[The Big Brzezinski]

Robin comes into the story with a point of view that we are never given a chance to understand. As the plot advances and story develops, she never reflects on or assimilates her experience. She's a stalk of celery in a produce bin; no roots, and no room to grow.

[Gon]

Robin is supposed to be a survival expert, yet comes to a hostile planet with... Nothing. That's the only thing about her that bugs me. (Well, that and not giving two knobs of goat dung about her sister who she travelled to the planet to investigate). If the intro had a pack she lost when the shuttle went boom or even a loaded toolbelt that got caught and had to be abandoned, I could forgive her, but no. She heads to a hostile planet with a fabricator and naff all else. What an idiot.

[Etherealtroll]

Originally posted by Gon:

Robin is supposed to be a survival expert, yet comes to a hostile planet with... Nothing. That's the only thing about her that bugs me. (Well, that and not giving two knobs of goat dung about her sister who she travelled to the planet to investigate). If the intro had a pack she lost when the shuttle went boom or even a loaded toolbelt that got caught and had to be abandoned, I could forgive her, but no. She heads to a hostile planet with a fabricator and naff all else. What an idiot.

Did you not find the supplies scattered around her crashed ship?

[YertyL]

Originally posted by Etherealtroll:

Did you not find the supplies scattered around her crashed ship?

The only things you find are water, nutrient blocks and flares -- nothing else is even hinted at in the wreckage. I just briefly started a new game to check. It's exactly the same as in the first game.
Packing lunch isn't really the hardcore preparation I would expect from a survivial expert going to an alien planet with no way back. The most egregious thing to me is that Robin does not only take any tools but not even the knowledge how to make them -- the first game even had data corruption in the PDA as an excuse to justify this.
And all details aside, the introduction sequence and beginning of both games is quite obviously set up to be very similar. I think all players intuitively 'get' that you start with the same level of preparation as in the first game, i.e. almost none.
This however happens to work a lot better for someone that is stranded by accident. Robin acting like a naive amateur at best makes it particularly hard to swallow when both she and the game constantly tell us how smart and competent she is: (minor spoilers) "You are a digitally networked alien thousands of years ahead of human knowledge? I am also a scientist!" "You are an effectively immortal, telekinetic superbeing? Well I work hard for my body" "Yes, both my sister and I are stable geniuses, please disregard everything we have done so far to prove otherwise"
Any human should be in complete awe of a being like ALAN, and instead she treats him like a nerdy lab partner, and the game vindicates her doing so.

[TyresTyco]

The supplies at the beggining arent supplies ala " I'm traveling to a "for me" unknown planet and need something to eat and drink "... No it's just mercy time from the devs to not get instantly " oh ♥♥♥♥.. gotta find generic survival stuff to survive".

If they would imply robins preparedness... she would at least bring the normal knife (If you think about it.. this game has kinda nothing (A tool) that would actually help her survive that makes sense. Some tool. Not just some flares nobody ever uses.

It's a icy location... she could have made some ice gun or something. Something to defend herself. That would also increase the AI possiblities since it would have to give you mercy time... again after every attack.

But that would require work and again creativity and not just copy pasting code.

[rosedragon]

sadly I have to agree. Robin can just be a common woman that is (by our actions) resourcesful enough to find way to more than survive and it will empower her character. Not forced 'I am expert on this' and then derped because game flow and her own speaking (which I think it was done to make her more relateable to everyday person).

I kind of like the banters in the logs tho, it can be funny with the seatruck guy and the plot keep me guessing what happened to the sister.

[bongerman85]

Originally posted by rosedragon:

sadly I have to agree. Robin can just be a common woman that is (by our actions) resourcesful enough to find way to more than survive and it will empower her character. Not forced 'I am expert on this' and then derped because game flow and her own speaking (which I think it was done to make her more relateable to everyday person).

I kind of like the banters in the logs tho, it can be funny with the seatruck guy and the plot keep me guessing what happened to the sister.

i wish they hadnt rushed the story and embelished a little more on the characters, i loved the seatruck guy especially once i figured out launch trailer was about him... and a few of the other background characters do have some great depth. the special character hanging around the area actually being alive was really cool, but again lacked depth, and kept pulling a vanishing act until the permanent vanishing act... its sad to not have closure on a lot of the story line, with the characters in original subnautica we understood to a vague extent what happened. where the abandoned parts of the game, i.e. the bases lack explanation, with how easy construction is its amazing to watch alterra literally rollover and just accepted that a terrorist "ruined everything" a lot of lack of depth there too.

and yes the banter between robin and al-an is really some gold there, i felt myself more relating to robin's sarcasm...

[Engioc]

I tend to agree, no problem with playing a female character but I feel like she would have been better being a more generic woman. I think a better story would have been to have her as the sister that hasn't achieved any success in life. It would have allowed her to be play the naive roll better, needing to learn how to survive. Right now she's a clueless expert.

Survival expert, flies right next to a flaming meteor, what could possibly go wrong, oh yeah it could break up and cause me to crash, and did. My ride is now toast and since Alterra have already abandoned the planet I have no way to get off this rock and go home, not even an ounce of concern about the fact she's now stuck. My buddy in the ship that got me here says nothing either, did he not notice the fact I crashed. Is he still up there waiting to help me get home later, unsure. I hope not because he could be waiting quite a while since I'm not coming back, I'm going to run away with an alien I know almost nothing about.

I want to find my sister, but totally unprepared for any search. A tiny amount of food, water, and flares, no sign of anything else. No idea where to even begin my search since I don't know the location of any Alterra bases, I'm an expert at survival but I prefer to just wing it and hope I find a clue somewhere on this planet.

It's a shame because the world they've created looks beautiful. I think the land could of used more life though. When you compared the amount of life I can see in the water, with what is on land, they are miles apart. In water there are all kinds of fauna, even schools of fish, I can't interact with them, but they add life and colour. On land there are snow stalkers/babies (not really that many either), a few spots with Pengwing/Pengling, skyrays, and ice worm, but nothing else. Not sure what else they can add, but I wish there was a bit more life on land.

Skyrays alone were fine in the original since there were only two small islands, but with so much more land in BZ it would have been nice to see more land creatures. Or rather than more types of creatures, perhaps just larger groups of Pengwing/Pengling, and snow stalkers too. Perhaps a beach area with a huge colony of Pengwing/Pengling like you get with real world penguins.

[Tux]

I think making the claim that one 'identifies with the character' in Sub1 is a huge stretch.
'does not get in the way of the experience' yes, 'identify with the character' ummm no, not even.

I would also assume there is a HUGE risk in making a playable character have a personality because the audience is in fact playing the character bringing their personally far more closer then an observer. which is why I think its ALWAYS a stupid idea to make the player character have an in depth personality. Its not like I do not have the same anyoying issues with GTA..because I do

[Pokiehl]

I went and played the 8.1 version after playing the full release, and 8.1 Robin was way better written. Look at the scene where Alan gets into Robin's head. Current release she's whiny and freaking out, 8.1 Robin is unhappy but accepts it. There's so much more nuance and character development that got tossed out.

I understand they had a new writer come in, but they should have built off what was there instead of trying to make their own mark. Then again, multiple rewrites + multiple voice actor changes + staff turnover does not make a good game.

[Tux]

Originally posted by Pokiehl:

I went and played the 8.1 version after playing the full release, and 8.1 Robin was way better written. Look at the scene where Alan gets into Robin's head. Current release she's whiny and freaking out, 8.1 Robin is unhappy but accepts it. There's so much more nuance and character development that got tossed out.

I understand they had a new writer come in, but they should have built off what was there instead of trying to make their own mark. Then again, multiple rewrites + multiple voice actor changes + staff turnover does not make a good game.

why did you feel the need to take extra time in your day to do that exercise?

[Just Chill]

Originally posted by Tux:

why did you feel the need to take extra time in your day to do that exercise?

This question could be applied to any post you make. XD

[Pokiehl]

Originally posted by Tux:

why did you feel the need to take extra time in your day to do that exercise?

People mentioned it was better, and I was curious. I'd actually recommend it - it feels like what they were trying to do with the narrative, rather than what we got.

[Tux]

Originally posted by Pokiehl:

Originally posted by Tux:

why did you feel the need to take extra time in your day to do that exercise?

People mentioned it was better, and I was curious. I'd actually recommend it - it feels like what they were trying to do with the narrative, rather than what we got.

fair enough, but no thanks. I dont 'do' stories in games. (and no i do not own this game)