Combat is soooo slow, compared to XCOM

[Nicholas]

Some missions may even take up to an hour to get them completed because of this. In that time span, I could have comleted 3-4 missions in both XCOM:EU and XCOM 2. The biggest flaws is that units in fog of war don't warp to their when they should. I mean sometimes you can't even hear them moving, but it looks like they take full movement animations there(timewise). And another thing, you can't move with more than one unit simultaneously like in XCOM. I mean, when things are over and all I need is to evacuate, I could even start moving all 6 units simultaneously in XCOM, but in Phoenix Point doing this same task is hellueva of a job.

In conclusion, I'd like to say that there is ZIP mode in XCOM 2. And not only this game doesn't have this feature, even default XCOM2 is zip mode compared to Phoenix Point.

I hope things are going to get better eventually, because this game does a lot of things better than XCOM, but sadly all of this is countered by things that XCOM does better.

[Dorok]

There's no need to evac a group and there's no evac cinematic. Moreover, evac is an action per soldier, evac a soldier, and let other soldiers combat can happen for good reasons. Perhaps I'm not cautious but I never synch evac.

[Nicholas]

I've come back and now I wonder how much time has passed since some of you, guys, played XCOM. At least my memory is fresh and I know what I'm talking about. This game needs quality of changes and it's obvious. Better tactical combat is just one of many things. I noticed that I've started to avoid battles just because of how long they feel compared to XCOM. Some fellows have already mentioned jetpack and pandorian animations, but there is more. Was that indeed so difficult to implement parallel movement? I'm not sure, but It should not be too hard. In XCOM you're locked only if your movement results in pod reveal(or something else, in rare cases). And it's justified, because it could affect the game dramatically code-wise. But what's deal with movements in Phoenix Point that result in... nothing? You're just always locked whenever you try to do any action, you have to wait while unit completes his marathon, with all those animations that can't be sped up, bruh. So that's my idea: you move one unit(and don't pretend the game doesn't already know what will happen), anf if they will reveal someone, just lock switching, simple.

And another thing I'd like to mention is key bindings. I would like to have key bindings for every single sensitive action. Like those that belong to sniper class. Maybe I'm missing something, but currently I enable them with mouse click rather than keyboard. Sometimes I want to make 7 pistol shots(4 default, 3 with will points) and surely all this clicking time adds up.

Also, I would like to make a point that XCOM is not flawless eithe. I just always notice when game starts to unnecessary waste time(gremlin animations, same case here, I remember avoiding to use them).

[Evil Nox]

Publicado originalmente por Dorok:

There's no need to evac a group and there's no evac cinematic. Moreover, evac is an action per soldier, evac a soldier, and let other soldiers combat can happen for good reasons. Perhaps I'm not cautious but I never synch evac.

The evac all was in combination with being able to send your solders moving as they travel, you can be giving your other soldiers orders to move as well. So ideally you would run a guy into the zone, and as he's running, send the next and the next and the next, then evac all there without having to wait for everyone to run single file would be nice.

You're right in not really needing "evac all" in this game, but it would be nice to be able to give orders to my other guys instead of watching each soldier run, one at a time.

[Killial]

For me, the average mission time is usually 15-30 minutes.
But some rare ones are up to 45 minutes.
Depends on the circumstances and what set of soldiers is used.

However, I want to say that if it is not so important at the beginning and middle of the game when new types of enemies appear and there is something to explore and strive for.
Then, closer to the late game, it starts to get boring, because you already train you dream-team or two and formed you strategy, but Pandorans attack more often, and it takes more time to simply defend heavens, bases, mines and hunt their lairs, in comparison with advancing through the tasks of the main plot and factions reps...

[Dorok]

Publicado originalmente por Nicholas:

I've come back and now I wonder how much time has passed since some of you, guys, played XCOM. At least my memory is fresh and I know what I'm talking about. This game needs quality of changes and it's obvious. Better tactical combat is just one of many things.

I doubt many players won't agree XCOM2 has a lot more polishing and has a quite higher production value.

For the better tactical combats, I won't agree at all, but let keep it at the opinion level, at least I don't agree you own the truth in that matter.

For the XCOM pods, lol, if you like this fine for you, for me it's just a tedious simple trick to create a thrill, totally boring in a combat and tactical perspective.

Same for the two phases design, it's faster to play, but a lot too simple. That you prefer it is fine, it's just a preference matter, not a quality matter. And thankfully not all shooters TB need clone XCOM.

I won't deny XCOM2 is a lot of fun, but there's ton of tedious aspects anyway:
- Abuse of timers.
- Boredom pods mechanism.
- Excessive RNG use.
- Excessive gambling temptations as hacking but a lot more.
- The 2 phases action is basic.
- The stealth system is just an attempt to change boredom of pods mechanisms but it's just once per mission. And between awful side effect from having two pods reaveal when stealth is discovered, enemies knowing where you are no matter how, and more, overall it's a tedious system.

EDIT: About enemy reveal for party generating a stop, for me, it's fine and fair play, but eventually it should not be applied for allies revealed even if there's a logic it does.

[Killial]

On the other hand, I'm personally happy that there are no time-limited missions in PP, compared to X-COM. More precisely, they seem to be there - like to protect buildings or civilians, but they are not as limited as for example "you have 2-3 turn left, otherwise the container will explode!".
But I agree that I lack the possibility to move units simultaneously. That would be great.

[Jestimac]

Publicado originalmente por Evil Nox:

My two favorite xcom2 mods was "stop wasting my time" and "evac all"

I'd love to have them for PP.

You correctly mention why it is difficult to compare XCOM2, a stable game that nobody plays without mods (and I also use the two mods you mention), and PP, which is a new game where the modders have not yet brought the quality of life improvements that we take for granted in XCOM. Compare PP and XCOM2 without mods. Well, I think we will all agree that PP is far better. Mods do improve XCOM2 tremendously.

[Dorok]

Publicado originalmente por Killial:

On the other hand, I'm personally happy that there are no time-limited missions in PP, compared to X-COM. More precisely, they seem to be there - like to protect buildings or civilians, but they are not as limited as for example "you have 2-3 turn left, otherwise the container will explode!".
But I agree that I lack the possibility to move units simultaneously. That would be great.

Yes, that's a huge change and for the few PP missions having an implicit timer, at higher difficulties, the first point to unlearn is to rush them, and instead consider those missions very slow paced. The reinforcement mechanism of PP replaces somehow the timers but in no way is the same as timers. I see from here what would be scavenging missions in XCOM2, a bit like originally in PP, or even "better" a timer and all containers explode when it's timeout, the XCOM way, sigh.

Another aspect rather unfair is XCOM1&2 are a lot more frustrating than PP, but a ton of players learned to feel it normal, "that's XCOM", or get disgusted and probably won't ever bother on PP but a few older players already fan of tactical games that aren't mainly strategy games.

[Dorok]

Publicado originalmente por Jestimac:

Publicado originalmente por Evil Nox:

My two favorite xcom2 mods was "stop wasting my time" and "evac all"

I'd love to have them for PP.

You correctly mention why it is difficult to compare XCOM2, a stable game that nobody plays without mods (and I also use the two mods you mention), and PP, which is a new game where the modders have not yet brought the quality of life improvements that we take for granted in XCOM. Compare PP and XCOM2 without mods. Well, I think we will all agree that PP is far better. Mods do improve XCOM2 tremendously.

No matter how fun I find PP, I can't agree with such comments.

For me:
- "stop wasting my time" never did anything noticeable for me, or what a player option could do already. Ok the mod was first but still.
- If evac all is changing your opinion on the whole game I'll argue it's weird it does, it's a tiny detail.
- Otherwise, original games without mods are a lot cleaner and more globally coherent than current PP, and XCOM2 is better for me, no matter its design choices I don't like, and no matter the extra depth PP has.

If PP reaches a final version globally coherent I doubt that for me any mod will make XCOM2 better than PP. But it's far from that, including design direction could change and not be as much my fun. I'm' particularly skeptical about top players' constant complain it's too easy and that many skills need to be removed or largely nerfed/changed. But there's clearly designs weirdness around it, and how to fix it without breaking arms of the gameplay, that's not obvious.

[Nicholas]

Publicado originalmente por Dorok:

Publicado originalmente por Nicholas:

I've come back and now I wonder how much time has passed since some of you, guys, played XCOM. At least my memory is fresh and I know what I'm talking about. This game needs quality of changes and it's obvious. Better tactical combat is just one of many things.

I doubt many players won't agree XCOM2 has a lot more polishing and has a quite higher production value.

For the better tactical combats, I won't agree at all, but let keep it at the opinion level, at least I don't agree you own the truth in that matter.

No, no, I didn't say XCOM has better combat. I meant, PP needs QoL changes to make combat better. So, the rest of your answer is irrelevant. Actually, PP has a lot of chances to become the superior game in the genre, a perfect game. It also has features that would make me send XCOM into backlog with number 2 silver trophy, like vehicles and esp class building(this feature induces me with euphoria, oooh). All of that, if not for the problems I already mention and those I didn't mention yet.

[Coyote]

Thats because xcom takes no skill and is a game for babies.
Hell i played legend ironman while drunk af and streaming and its still easy as ♥♥♥♥ game.

[Nicholas]

Publicado originalmente por Coyotekins:

Thats because xcom takes no skill and is a game for babies.
Hell i played legend ironman while drunk af and streaming and its still easy as ♥♥♥♥ game.

Ahah, but I guess you were sober by the time you won/lost a campaign. XCOM is surely faster, but not fast enough to be completed over 8 hours.

[Dorok]

Publicado originalmente por Nicholas:

Publicado originalmente por Dorok:

I doubt many players won't agree XCOM2 has a lot more polishing and has a quite higher production value.

For the better tactical combats, I won't agree at all, but let keep it at the opinion level, at least I don't agree you own the truth in that matter.

No, no, I didn't say XCOM has better combat. I meant, PP needs QoL changes to make combat better. So, the rest of your answer is irrelevant. Actually, PP has a lot of chances to become the superior game in the genre, a perfect game. It also has features that would make me send XCOM into backlog with number 2 silver trophy, like vehicles and esp class building(this feature induces me with euphoria, oooh). All of that, if not for the problems I already mention and those I didn't mention yet.

Ok, not sure PP QoL can have much improvement without some dumbing down/Steamlining. In combat, I don't see much, perhaps a few points with some streamlining player options (rush dumbly a la XCOM at player choice, option for grenades a la XCOM and totally safe for target point and trajectory, auto run to evac), clean the bugs around the overwatch and aiming or explain better the logic of some of their aspects, clean the bugs around movement points lost which for me was only a case related to travel on some element higher than ground not from move interrupt, heighthighlight visually enemies that will resurrect, have in combat an option to see enemies reports detail, increased visual differences for skills owned by enemies particularly for Sirens but also Chiron/Triton/Scylla, ok there's perhaps more.

For global management, the globe UI has been already improved a lot, for QoL I could see some, option for scaling zoom in/out speed two options for globe and separated for combats, a new roster view allowing some sorts, ability to manually reorg the ordered list of aircraft, option for PP bases menu like aircraft menu, fix manual selection by clicking on base/aircraft so it works even when the position isn't at 90°, have a list of sites to dig, ok there's perhaps more.

For PP final state, hard to say, after one year the game changed on many aspects and was cleaned on many aspects, but it's still a lot more an EA game than a final release pas many changes and patches. For me PP won't be able to be really clean, it targeted too many difficult design aspects that weren't enough experienced before in past games.

[Nicholas]

Yes, yes, all of that for geoscape and also a list of all discovered and functional havens.

Scanner built in Fort Purity

And now you have to look where it is.

Talking about battlescape, I want to remind my idea that would improve gameplay without "dumbing down": when you move with one unit you can still switch to another if they won't reveal any unit squad didn't see or they may go even further and make it so you can switch even if initial unit's movement is going to be inturrupted by revealing an enemy. Just lock only one square where unit will stop.. Why not? I must fully understand consequences of taking actions while not knowing whether my scout will find some hidden things or not.

For example. I might want to move medic into pocket with 3 full covers where they won't do much impact anyway. So there is no need apparent reason to lock their movement. Or almost everything on the map is pretty much dead all I do now is rushing all my squad to a lonely pandorian having fun with civilians. Nothing is going to be revealed, because even this single unit is visible. How can it be justified that I can't switch even in these simple cases? I hope they will continue development. I'm looking forward to have 1000 hours, but I don't to waste 20% of this time watching heavies fly.

[Dorok]

List of Haven? Ha ok with sorts and filters, as one for soldiers.

For parallel moves it won't work with the stop mechanism, sorry but in my point of view it's a dumbing down to remove this mechanism. But yeah player option to not have move interrupted and parallel run. But it's possible that the parallel thing is too late for the code state. I quoted Wasteland 3 allows simultaneous enemies turns as did Temple of Elemental Evil. But how many TB games added such an option in their budget size? Not many. I suspect such an element wasn't in the plan and add it now could be too late.

EDIT: For heavy flies, it's a typical movement that could have an option for instant execution. This should be simpler to implement than a parallel system never planed. And for LOS calculation along with the travel, I hardly believe it's more than a tiny part of the animation lenght.