Abyss 19 "Trinal" - did I cheese it?

[playful_tux]

It takes a fair number of steps to solve this puzzle, but I have doubts on just one step I took to beat it:


At some point, on the high platform I leave 3 connectors, two (green and blue) opening the central barrier, and one connecting the red source to the red target (powering the second fan).

This red connector can reach the target through a teeny tiny opening going through the central (large) hole in the platform and through supporting (!) beams. The opening is so small that I wonder if it's an accident.

Is there another way?

[kablahrz]

This is what I ended up doing, and it did seem to require more precision than is typical ... but I just considered it a convenience, since I generally seemed to have a surplus connector available throughout the level, which just made gate navigation marginally less tedious. It usually got left behind, some place unnecessary.

[playful_tux]

Interesting, I couldn't figure out a complete solution for the later steps without that "surplus" connector, as I later needed to "sacrifice" the other 3 connectors (left them on pressure plates to keep gates open) so I'd be able to take the fan propeller back from the second fan, after sending the clones up.. Maybe I should revisit that part.

[kablahrz]

Or I was just remembering wrong. On revisiting ... I don't see how it can be done with 4 connectors up top when getting the clones launched onto the outer walkway ring. As you say, a connector is required on the ground to keep the inner gate open, in order to move the fan back to central position. And the two connectors must remain on the pressure plates at the launch fan to keep that barrier open. It would have made more sense for the red emitter to have been positioned on the other side of the top platform, mirrored from its current location, giving that extra connector a role in the final solution beyond a paperweight.

[Songbird]

You absolutely can and are expected to have four connectors on top of the central ring. You need to arrive at a state where the two clones are on the switches near the red laser-powered fan, one fan is used to open the central gate, and one fan is used to reach the top of the tower. After you set up the lasers, you move the central fan to the other switch for the central gate, place the other fan in place near the clones, launch up the clones, then can bring the fan back to the middle and set up the lasers to open the exit.

[kablahrz]

Originally posted by Songbird:

You absolutely can and are expected to have four connectors on top of the central ring. You need to arrive at a state where the two clones are on the switches near the red laser-powered fan, one fan is used to open the central gate, and one fan is used to reach the top of the tower. After you set up the lasers, you move the central fan to the other switch for the central gate, place the other fan in place near the clones, launch up the clones, then can bring the fan back to the middle and set up the lasers to open the exit.

I *have* found my vision to be a problem on some levels, failing to see a critical tool that's been made available, and maybe this puzzle, Abyss-19: Trinal, is another example, because ... I can only find one removable fan, not two. There are 4 fan mechanisms, but only the one removable fan module -- by my count.

Screenshots:
* only 3 connectors up-top
* red laser pass-through
* "gate" connector shifted to relay

Note: For me, anyway, using the spare/"gate" connector as a relay for the red laser for this phase of the solution makes it seem less hokey, as opposed to the precision needed to hit the launch fan's red receiver using just a single connector.

Either way ... 4th connector can be used up-top during the clone launch phase of the solve; it just requires using one of the 2 clones to retrieve the fan module from the tower elevator fan location (so you'd need to deliver at least one paperweight connector to the clones before retreating up-top w/ the 4th connector); and you'd need to grab the 4th connector before jumping off the platform, targeting the jump for the launch fan (or puzzle entry) area.

[Songbird]

Sorry, was answering from memory. There is a superfluous 5th connector rather than a superfluous fan.

[kablahrz]

Originally posted by Songbird:

Sorry, was answering from memory. There is a superfluous 5th connector rather than a superfluous fan.

Roger. (But she ain’t superfluous if requiring 4 connectors up-top for the clone launch. Doing so makes the sol’n slightly more precarious.)

[eyedunno11]

I did it the same way you did it my first time solving it. I've since gone back and redone it two more times a different way, but I still don't consider this cheese. You're still getting the basics of the puzzle and if anything you're making it more difficult than just using the two connectors up there to hold the door open with blue and green so you can free up more connectors.

Edit: I just read the OP a little more thoroughly. I had used that very specific angle, but not exactly in the same way. Anyway, in that case, most definitely not cheese, just efficient use of connectors, heh. Now I'm gonna go solve it again to try to make this work again. Feel free to go: "but y wud u solv a puzle agen? Are yuo a spedruner?" like some dude on Reddit did to me the other day. 😉

Edit #2: OK, just did it. I really like that, and honestly I didn't find the positioning anywhere near as janky as the final positioning. I also used a bit of ACTUAL cheese I saw in a video that's not too bad, but I still sorta wish they would patch it out: you don't have to open the barriers on both sides because you can get line of sight from one inner clone to the other so that you can hit the switches on both sides. Opening the left side barrier was actually the part of this puzzle that took me the longest to figure out, so it's a bit of a bummer that that's not required, because the puzzle really is even easier without that.

[kablahrz]

Originally posted by eyedunno11:

I also used a bit of ACTUAL cheese I saw in a video that's not too bad, but I still sorta wish they would patch it out:

Meh, if you've solved it in the past the "proper" way, using the suggested "cheese" to expedite that phase of the solve is really just a fast forward button, since, otherwise, it's just a matter of replicating the procedure ... mirrored. (Though maybe with a little tweak in terms of connector positioning to address barrier gates. That said, part of the puzzle difficulty *is* getting through the long slog without accidental self-imprisonment, so...)

[eyedunno11]

Originally posted by kablahrz:

Originally posted by eyedunno11:

I also used a bit of ACTUAL cheese I saw in a video that's not too bad, but I still sorta wish they would patch it out:

Meh, if you've solved it in the past the "proper" way, using the suggested "cheese" to expedite that phase of the solve is really just a fast forward button, since, otherwise, it's just a matter of replicating the procedure ... mirrored. (Though maybe with a little tweak in terms of connector positioning to address barrier gates. That said, part of the puzzle difficulty *is* getting through the long slog without accidental self-imprisonment, so...)

Uh, have you ever solved it by opening the left side? If not, I think you should try it. It's really not "just a matter of replicating the procedure ... mirrored." I mean, unless you made the right side unnecessarily complicated.

See, on both sides, the green receiver is on the outside and the blue receiver is on the inside. This makes the right side trivial, as you can just pull a blue laser straight across at ground level. I'm not going to pretend doing the left side was remotely on par with most other Abyss puzzles, but it was the hardest part of an otherwise pretty trivial puzzle, and it took me a a fair amount of screwing around to realize how I had to do it.

I do agree about softlock potential, but I'm not sure how to fix it. I was thinking ladders, but the more I think about it, the more I think those would break the puzzle or create new softlock potential.

[kablahrz]

Originally posted by eyedunno11:

Uh, have you ever solved it by opening the left side?

Yes, always. I suppose I didn't consider the effectively mirrored approach as "overly complicated," since it's just using the upper connectors as relays as hinted at at puzzle start. The ground-based blue connection *could* be used in one of the setups, but I usually forget that's even possible and just use the upper relay setup.

Originally posted by eyedunno11:

I'm not going to pretend doing the left side was remotely on par with most other Abyss puzzles, but it was the hardest part of an otherwise pretty trivial puzzle, and it took me a a fair amount of screwing around to realize how I had to do it.

This has me wondering what you had to do, because it sounds like something other than just using the two connectors up top as relays.

Originally posted by eyedunno11:

I do agree about softlock potential, but I'm not sure how to fix it.

Nothing to be fixed on that front, in my view. Generally I don’t understand requests to change puzzles to address situations where a mistake can leave you locked-up. Being able to effectively execute the solution imagined is part of the difficulty.

[eyedunno11]

Originally posted by kablahrz:

This has me wondering what you had to do, because it sounds like something other than just using the two connectors up top as relays.

That's what I did eventually for the left side, but only after trying a lot of other configurations, and the first time I tried, the lasers were cutting themselves off, so rather than reposition them, I went back to the drawing board for a while. Also, you have to disconnect green from its initial connection, and I was loathe to do that for a bit.

[kablahrz]

Roger. Thanks.

Originally posted by eyedunno11:

Also, you have to disconnect green from its initial connection, and I was loathe to do that for a bit.

Both blue and green need to be disconnected from their initial connections, IIRC, since both lasers are hitting the platform instead of a connector.

[mellamoger]

I'm a little bit amused, as I never considered putting a 4th connector in the upper platform. I just solved the puzzle like op and never planned to do it in a different way. You even have those little ledges that indicate you the spots where to leave the connectors to make it work.

[orian34]

In the end, it's a fairly simple one, just gotta do the steps in order: https://youtu.be/6cgZYsP8NMY
I feel like the middle connector is just useless though.