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The minimum requirement for fighting shimano is to not button mash mindlessly. I think that is reasonable enough logic for any player whether they are new or not to pick up immediately.
none of those things are hard to do, but none of them are well designed or intuitive. at best, its boring. at worst, its hard. neither of those is a positive trait.
Brawler and beast works along with rush against shimano. Short combos from brawler and rush in very obvious openings works. Heat actions from grabs works on shimano. You can literally run circles around him without any dodging to avoid all his attacks, so any of the 3 styles that lets you run can evade shimano easily. The regen in the early game is so small, just about any of your full combos negates any gain the regen gives shimano. Also essense of kiwami for the 3 styles are incredibly cheap and anyone who didn't immediately rush into the story can easily get them. If someone is experimenting with the mechanics of the game and made a bad build, how is that the fault of the game? They can reload and try a different route and eventually you figure out the best method for success. Blindly doing whatever you feel like shouldn't be a guarantee reward, failing is part of the learning process to understand how things works.
i still incredibly disagree with that. any game with a free and open level system shouldn't discourage you for not knowing whats optimal, and the punishment should not be "start all the way over."
just because you can easily get them doesn't mean you'd understand why they're important either. i definitely can't see how making the wrong decision with no guidance on what the right decision is is good game design, sorry i just purely disagree.
Shimano was just annoying rather than hard imo, I skipped fighting shakedown normally in Y0 cus I didn't enjoy his fight which made the Shimano fight a test of patience as I tended to overcommit, Shimano is the first boss that has any real amounts of super armor, all other enemies before him either block or get hit-stunned.
Arase was the easiest of the "hard" fights in my playthrough, he spawns with weak goons that go down to the Thug/Rush Style very quickly while he sits in the back occasionally doing one of his like 3-4 moves. I Imagine this fight is more annoying if you don't go and focus the gun goons first and don't know the timing for dodging bullets. His only real threat is if you get caught out by his very obvious mag dump attack in his heat phase, the rest is mostly dodge punishing his attacks. Fight is more frustrating on virtue of how gunshots interrupt you (more on that in my Jingu thoughts).
Oh Jingu, in the PS2 version hes so much simpler of a fight, by virtue of the fact you can ignore his bodyguards (who only have knives iirc) and focus on taking Jingu down. Not in Kiwami though! If you try to down Jingu first, he heals back to 1 bar once the MIA guys revive.
So the fight is 2 gun agents who will take any chance they get to take pot shots when not being attacked, and Jingu himself who not only shoots you with a gun, but also lobs grenades at you cus his trench coat has a portal to the grenade factory in Tokyo or something. The fight is just a frustrating slog, over commit to attacking an agent? Eat a bullet or grenade. Just got hit stunned by a bullet or grenade? Eat a bullet or grenade. Over committed to dodging? Bullet or Grenade. Yeah sure, Komaki teaches you to dodge bullets, and in Y0 there's the Rush trainer and the final training. But it only teaches you to dodge vs one foe, w/o having to worry about attacking.
Then you get Jingu to his second bar, and they revive with knives, same thing with the guns only with knives instead, overcommit and get shot, blown up or stabbed. At least you can focus on Jingu to get the ranged element out of the fight, leaving blockable (with armguards) and Tiger Dropable foes. Second phase is still annoying if you don't bother with grabbing Tiger Drop (Like I did, cus it frankly ruins the story fights).
Even the "final challenge" of the Yakuza games (aside from Amon), the Climax Battles, don't bother including a single Jingu fight in Kiwami. Yet you fight Arase 3 times in total, and learn just how easy he is.
Side fact from the PS2 Jingu fight, while his actual fight isn't that bad, he constantly shoots at you during the long battle portion just before you confront him. Glad they removed that in Kiwami.
It isn't a punishment to reload a save file. You don't need to be genius to plan ahead and make a separate save in case you regret the decision you make in the game. If you have to start completely all over, that's all on the player.
How exactly is someone experimenting if you expect every test to be successful 100% without any problems? Some ideas can be dumb, you learn from the mistake and come up with something better. That is the purpose of experimenting, to figure things out.
Lastly, there are no wrong decisions in yakuza. They player's skills in playing the game far outweigh the skills they pick and choose. Every skill makes the player stronger in one way or another. The skills they chose may not compliment their playstyle but that is on the player to adjust until to they become more comfortable.
However, you cannot say "The player's skills in playing the game far outweigh the skills they pick and choose" while also arguing the best method of preparance is to either grind as you should have climax heat skills as soon as possible, or you should just know thats what you need and already have them. You are actively admitting climax heat is infinitely more useful than other things players may have at this time. You cannot argue something like, for example, Black Tortoise Spirit and a few Beast style upgrades are going to do literally anything for you in this instance. And I still say its very possible a new player gets in a situation where thats the kind of stuff they have. Yes, its beatable, but perhaps your issue is me saying this fight is "difficult" rather than "stupid and tedious." In my mind, a hassle is "difficult" to overcome whether or not it is tasking on a technical level because it is not fun. Imo this is why you will rarely see anyone complain about a fight's difficulty in any game if the fight itself is ultimately fun to do.
I also don't agree with the way you view experimentation. I will say again, a free level system that gives you no real information or hints towards what might help you, and then very soon into the game wants you to have something specific, is inherently bad design. Lets look at another game with free leveling, Final Fantasy X. In simple terms, using a system called the international sphere grid, any party member can begin to learn any types of skills (magic, stealing, buffs, etc.) at any time. Under any circumstance in which you are playing the game as a normal player would (ie: not intentionally handicapping yourself), you will never have a moment in Final Fantasy X in which it says something like "sorry, nobody got to the reflect spell yet, this fight will take you longer and be much less engaging." Any time a specific spell or tactic would be beneficial happens either well after the game is sure a balanced party has access to it, or well after characters have discussed how it might be useful coming up. I have 100% completed the international PS2 version of that game myriad times. I have never, ever landed in a situation, even on my very first playthrough, in which the game punished me for not "experimenting correctly." The only "dumb ideas" were ideas you would inherently understand could create problems (making everyone black magic users, making no one learn healing, etc.)
Lets even look at another example, Disgaea 3, an srpg with an incredibly large amount of class and skill options that are open at the very beginning. At the start, you will have about 2 story relevant characters, and create the rest (many of which you will probably use for the rest of the main game.) There is not a single point in the main gameplay loop (disgaea post-games are very finnicky and challenging) where the game says "did you not choose, out of all of the options, to make a male fire mage? This fight now has a key mechanic in it you can do nothing about, sorry." and yet again, usually if something basic is very helpful to have, you just naturally already have access to it.
My point is, I've played countless games with incredibly open systems in terms of leveling and skill allocation. This is the only game fandom I've ever seen in which the argument "you didn't allocate skill points correctly/you should've went back and grinded more levels until you could allocate skill points correctly" is seen as acceptable and a fault of the player (outside of the case the player actively decides to make things harder on purpose). Regardless of you saying there aren't wrong decisions in Yakuza, It IS a wrong decision not to invest in climax heat actions before Shimano, because the game actively punishes you for it. What is having a tactic with no other answer if not a punishment? And what is a punishment if not a message that you did the wrong thing?
Just to clarify btw, as my account being private may make it difficult to tell, I've beaten the game. I've also beaten Yakuza 0 and 7 and am currently working on kiwami 2. I say this because, and maybe I've misinterpreted you, it sounds like you don't think I understand how the games function.
The game never forced you have any specific builds just to be able beat shimano. Like I said, the regen is so minimal in the shimano fight that any combo is more than enough to negate whatever health the bosses gained, you can literally run away from all of his attacks, and grabs works on him. None of these things require a specific skills from the game, it only requires the player to actually be skill enough to used them properly. You act like there wasn't a tutorial that explicitly explained the essence of kiwami, but it is somehow shocking and upsetting that you feel like you are unable to do anything about it except punching and kicking the boss (which works just as effectively).
Your examples are not even cases of you experimenting. It is an instance in which the game hands you the explicit answers to the situation.
I don't know why you are so hung up about blowing up this one specific sets are skills that are so cheap, require little to no grinding, and has minimal impact in that current state of the game. The skills aren't what important in this game. Yakuza is NOT A TURN-BASE RPG, it is an action game. Your skills in how you control your character is far more important than what abilities you can give your character.
woah its almost like i'm saying having the basic tools needed to answer problems the game throws at you is really important to balance and fun and thats why i hate the concept of "its your fault you don't have them when you weren't told you need them" but they make no real difference, right?
also why are you so hung up on how easy and cheap they are to get if having them makes, apparently, no difference? you keep using this weird logic loop of "its your job to experiment and figure out (apropos of nothing) what is helpful to have in the coming fights, but if you experiment wrong its your fault."
idk how many times now i've had to say "yes, he is still beatable but it makes the fight infinitely worse if you don't have things you wouldn't know you needed." i could sit here and beat the entire game in only beast style but i could not imagine how wildly inefficient that would be.
tutorial:
"Kiwami means EXTREME!
If Kiryu is in Climax Heat Mode at this time, he can use the Essence of Kiwami...
-Getting close to this enemy with the correct style will generate a Kiwami icon in the upper-right corner."
what part of that tutorial says "other heat actions (outside of weapon heats) cannot be triggered at this time"? what part of that tutorial says "these actions are only available after you have acquired the correct skills to use essence of kiwami"? what part of this tutorial implies I should have these things specifically before heading to the funeral? nothing. You've yet to counter the point that this lack of information and communication is inherently bad design.
I'm done with this thread because all its become is you saying "the fight is completely doable no matter what" followed by me saying "but heres how its badly designed compared to other things" followed by you saying "those things don't matter because you can do the fight regardless of them." I'm not going to continue to talk in circles about how regardless of if you CAN win, this is the only fight in the entire series (that i've played so far) where I have ever felt like "this would be infinitely more efficient if i had one specific tool." and how that inherently leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Perhaps my tone has also come off negatively, but I can say from my perspective you have chosen to be rude, angry, and condescending about this in a way i don't feel a need to engage with.
sorry new players, you both didn't experiment properly and are complaining about an irrelevant non-issue I guess.
Yes, they're cheap and early in the upgrade tree, but me, Hyde, and MANY OTHERS didn't get them by the time we reached the Shimano fight, especially given how restricted and linear the start of the game is. Yes, it was possible to beat Shimano anyway, through chugging lots of healing items and TEDIOUSLY chipping away at him, but it certainly wasn't FUN, and it sent me straight to google in a fit of rage to find a way past the boss' ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ health regen.
I love this game and this series, but they dropped the ball on the boss fights hard compared to Yakuza 0.
Took the enjoyable cinematic fights of 0 and turned it into “hit once and run” combat or “just tiger drop”.
The enemies AI is generally more annoying in the game overall. They block, dodge and counter way more and usually have more hyper armor/anti knockdown.